Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Democracy has no place in the EU.

I'm not disputing the rest of what you posted, but this last sentence isn't true. The European Parliament consists of democratically elected members and that parliament can block any measures that the unelected EU Commission proposes. Every Commission measure has to be passed by the parliament.

So there is no true dictatorship power.

There is a democratic weakness in that the parliament can propose a measure to the Commission, but cannot force acceptance. However, that's not much different from the power of upper legislatures in democracies.

And remember that once the aim of union is achieved, the EU Commission has no function so disbands, all power reverting to the elected European Parliament.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

"Fascism is a form of government in which the country is considered more important than any one person, group, liberty, or provision."
The UK version is simply that you substitute the word Establishment for country, but kid the proles that it's the country you care about.

Oh, but we do know what it is, and recognise it, and we know very well where it lived in the past too.
"The BUF claimed 50,000 members at one point, and the Daily Mail, running the headline "Hurrah for the Blackshirts!," was an early supporter.
And the Conservative Party has a history of producing them.
"Oswald Mosley was the youngest elected Conservative MP "
How about
"
Let's get the undisputed facts out of the way first. At the beginning of the 1930s, the then Viscount Rothermere (Harold Harmsworth) owned the Mail and the Mirror.

In January 1934, he wrote - under his own byline - articles that appeared in both the Mail and the Mirror. The former was headlined "Hurrah for the Blackshirts". The latter was headlined "Give the Blackshirts a helping hand."
About a year later he changed his mind? perhaps woke up form a dream?
So having established that the UK press and Establishment Can and has supported Fascism, can we move on?
The leave campaign has many good points going for it, but this nationalism has connotations it needs to distance itself from.

 

[oldgroaner]

The words 'Nazi Charity'
really put lefties in a fit.
Simply does not accord with their world view.

But it does with yours?

 

[oldgroaner]

OK you are so clever, explain.
Do you know the origins of fascism.
Have you any idea of the 1890 Parisian anti rationalists?
Do you know that Mussolini was imprisoned for his Marxist agitation?
It really bugs me when people throw the word fascist about without really knowing what it is.

And Mussolini was violently opposed by the Italian Communist party, or have you forgotten that?

 

[oldtom]

Old Tom does not have a clue about what 'Fascism', really is.
He would be shocked to discover that it is really a Marxist heresy.
The EU is inherently in its construction a fascist dictatorship.
Democracy has no place in the EU.

I have just this minute seen your comment Mike and I cannot begin to understand why you would make such a stupid remark.

As a big crossword fan, I have a variety of dictionaries at home which sometimes describe words slightly differently, one from another, though none is wrong. For you to contribute your 'Does not have a clue' statement to the thread is actually insulting to me and suggestive perhaps of something deeper and more sinister in your reasoning.

Of all the dictionaries at my disposal, this fairly simple and concise description of the word, 'Fascism' fits pretty accurately with the context in which I used it:

FASCISM

'An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organisation. (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices.

The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922–43); the regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also Fascist.

Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach.ORIGIN 1920s: from Italian fascismo, from fascio ‘bundle, political group’, from Latin fascis (see fasces)'

Will you accept that description of the word Mike and my usage, or are you going to disagree with the lexicographers who actually provide word descriptions for our benefit?

Tom

 

[trex]

fascists: those on the far right or far left wearing some sort of uniform when they meet up.

 

[tillson]

"Fascism is a form of government in which the country is considered more important than any one person, group, liberty, or provision."
The UK version is simply that you substitute the word Establishment for country, but kid the proles that it's the country you care about.

Oh, but we do know what it is, and recognise it, and we know very well where it lived in the past too.
"The BUF claimed 50,000 members at one point, and the Daily Mail, running the headline "Hurrah for the Blackshirts!," was an early supporter.
And the Conservative Party has a history of producing them.
"Oswald Mosley was the youngest elected Conservative MP "
How about
"
Let's get the undisputed facts out of the way first. At the beginning of the 1930s, the then Viscount Rothermere (Harold Harmsworth) owned the Mail and the Mirror.

In January 1934, he wrote - under his own byline - articles that appeared in both the Mail and the Mirror. The former was headlined "Hurrah for the Blackshirts". The latter was headlined "Give the Blackshirts a helping hand."
About a year later he changed his mind? perhaps woke up form a dream?
So having established that the UK press and Establishment Can and has supported Fascism, can we move on?
The leave campaign has many good points going for it, but this nationalism has connotations it needs to distance itself from.

What has any of this got to do with Brexit, where the accusation of Fascism has been levelled? I thing you have been snorting the the same hallucinating dugs as derf.

I think I'll refer to you as Old Stoner instead of oldgroaner from now on.

 

[derf]

And this is why your are wrong and all your comments are distorted accordingly
Remember 50% of th electorate (don't hold me to the precisenumbers) are infavourof Brexit
Do you really believe all are racists, stop this delusion and try to recognise the real objection most of us have instead of focus sing on the east targets, which is simply politics and self serving

it is ironic really (and i man this sincerely, as a voter who feels as ambivalent as most, but will vote to remain). "leave" appear to have skewered itself by focussing on immigration - when in reality there were many more nuanced and serious issues at stake (and that woudl perhasp have appaled to many more moderate swing votes). Its strange how polarising a campaign andappealing to extremes can backfire (IMHO)

 

[tillson]

The part of the 'Leave' campaign about which their supporters just flatly refuse to concede is that it is mostly populated, not by democrats seeking to restore some mythical coverall, judicial/economic/political sovereign control, but by fascists.

Even if there were the slightest possibility that our own country would not suffer hugely, (and I believe it will), from withdrawal from the Euro club we begged, yes begged, to enter, outside of the EU we would be at the mercy of a whole raft of countries. Many of those are not our friends right now and many more will probably take a real dislike to us for our arrogant attitude towards other member states. It's probably worth mentioning at the present time that our football supporters do the country no favours in that regard although I'm well aware that those travelling fans from one or two other countries are no better.

The 'Leave' advocates seem unable to accept, or are unconcerned by, the overt fascist doctrine that has headlined their campaign right from the start. I really believe that many of them don't know what the word fascist means and even if they do, are incapable of believing that such evil can possibly exist in this day and age.

Fascism existed not only in places like Germany, Spain and Italy in the last century but here too in the UK. Not only was it present, some of our major newspapers fully supported the movement in Germany and backed the Mosley 'blackshirt' thugs in this country. Fascism operates insidiously to begin with but if allowed to prosper and grow, it becomes an almost unstoppable force but not a force for good.

Some of those who contribute to this thread appear to me to be fully entrenched in fascist dogma from the comments they make. The New Statesman put out an article almost a year ago which picked up on social changes noticed by a journalist who had been out of the country for a year. It's an interesting read and I link to it here:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/europe-shouldn-t-worry-about-migrants-it-should-worry-about-creeping-fascism

Tom

Have you lost your mind Tom?

Populated mostly by fascists? Come on, you don't really think that do you?

 

[trex]

it's refreshing to see Stuart on BBC1 this morning distancing leave from Farage. Leave should have done this much sooner.
Latest polls put remain ahead by 4%. The Pound rose today to $1.46 on remain improved poll rating, it was $1.40 just 4 days ago.

 

[tillson]

it is ironic really (and i man this sincerely, as a voter who feels as ambivalent as most, but will vote to remain). "leave" appear to have skewered itself by focussing on immigration - when in reality there were many more nuanced and serious issues at stake (and that woudl perhasp have appaled to many more moderate swing votes). Its strange how polarising a campaign andappealing to extremes can backfire (IMHO)

Focusing on immigration may or may not have been the correct strategy. There is no denying that it is a concern for a lot of people, but we will have to wait until Friday to find out for sure.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Some more facts, from a pretty impartial source. Who if there was a problem to UK workers caused by immigration might be quite likely to shout about it.

But hey, as long as some of your "opinions" are that we should leave and risk everything despite what ALL the experts are suggesting. Then knock yourselves out.

Hopefully more than 50% will have done some actual research and realised we're better in, so we won't have to find out "what if"

 

[trex]

Focusing on immigration may or may not have been the correct strategy. There is no denying that it is a concern for a lot of people, but we will have to wait until Friday to find out for sure.

focussing on immigration and Australian point system is the right strategy for leave because it gets their core voters out to vote. Leave should have distanced their campaign from xenophobic Farage much sooner to avoid handing the momentum over to remain. Leave must now concentrate on pointing out 'do we need more regulations in our daily life?' - the EU regulates everything bought and sold, there bound to be a lot of liberal people who do not like this.

 

[derf]

focussing on immigration and Australian point system is the right strategy for leave because it gets their core voters out to vote. Leave should have distanced their campaign from xenophobic Farage much sooner to avoid handing the momentum over to remain. Leave must now concentrate on pointing out 'do we need more regulations in our daily life?' - the EU regulates everything bought and sold, there bound to be a lot of liberal people who do not like this.

yes, but doesnt that just tell one everything one needs to know about leave's core voters? myopically self centered, self serving, "types"(i woudlnt dream of saying "congenital idiots") who wouldnt just sacrifice the environment for their self interest, but also in teh end their self interets (inasmuch as they woudl have ended up in a tiny isolated ocuntry with bd demographgics and very little else). a lot of liberal types do in fact like a lot of the eu regulation, in my experience.

 

[mike killay]

http://www.la-articles.org.uk/fascism.htm

 

[trex]

yes, but doesnt that just tell one everything one needs to know about leave's core voters?.

No, it doesn't.
It's totally legitimate to push for stricter control of immigration. Successive governments refused to discuss it, so now it's a chance for leave to shout about it.

 

[oldgroaner]

What has any of this got to do with Brexit, where the accusation of Fascism has been levelled? I thing you have been snorting the the same hallucinating dugs as derf.

I think I'll refer to you as Old Stoner instead of oldgroaner from now on.

Tillson just what are you on about?
If you had been awake you would have realised I was responding to a post concerning the nature of Fascism, which I quite agree is a separate issue, still it gave you an opportunity so show your quite unique diplomatic skills, prompting me to ask, have you got some fetish over substance abuse by any chance?
You seem to have taken it as the insult of choice.

For the record, I don't smoke, drink, suffer from substance abuse, bet or lie.
And I am tolerant even of people who are lacking in the social skills.
Therefore your comments are always welcome, and quite revealing.
Perhaps you would do well to remember that.
In the words of the old proverb
"When people have reason to doubt your intelligence
Be careful what you say doesn't banish all doubt."

 

[flecc]

No, it doesn't.
It's totally legitimate to push for stricter control of immigration. Successive governments refused to discuss it, so now it's a chance for leave to shout about it.

Yes, I think they should use this, their strongest card, but they should also be honest about the fact that immigration control of EU citizens would lose us free access to the EU market.

All we could hope for then would be some restricted access after long negotiation and no agreement for our financial services, which is 80% of our export business. That would really hurt.
.

 

[oldtom]

Have you lost your mind Tom?

Populated mostly by fascists? Come on, you don't really think that do you?

As you well know Tillson, I have always considered you to be one of the most intelligent and articulate contributors to this forum.

It, therefore, pains me to say this but as I'm certain my mind is still fully functional, I worry that yours may be misfiring somewhat, judging from some of your recent input.

As for your question about fascists; first, I would refer you to the dictionary definition I provided in #725.

Secondly, it is my belief that the main players in the Brexit campaign all meet that criteria. Specifically, I refer primarily to Farage, IDS, Johnson and Gove who, between them, don't have a compassionate bone in their bodies. Neither do they have any understanding of economics, or they choose to ignore such practicalities, preferring to rely upon their major themes, ie, blaming the EU for the country's ills and calling refugees economic migrants because these are easy targets with which racists, the poorly-educated and the ignorant find favour.

For me, it follows therefore, that those who choose to align themselves with the purveyors of hatred, discrimination and intolerance are, by definition, fascist also.

As I'm sure I mentioned previously, I have actually been involved in a very passive leafletting campaign in various locations which, to be frank, I have found to be rather futile and very disheartening, especially given the media coverage of recent weeks. You would not believe, though, the hostility demonstrated by many of those who disagree with our continuing EU membership.

The behaviour exhibited by some, is reminiscent of the scenes on our streets when Mosley was drumming up support back in the 1930s. You may think I exaggerate but, although I'm a big guy and can still look after myself, in spite of health matters, I did feel very uncomfortable and exposed on several occasions.

As I see it today, there are two issues we need to resolve: The first, obviously, is the referendum. The second is the worrying rise of right-wing extremism in this country and equally worryingly, the same trend in several other countries.

That second issue may resolve itself if the outcome of the vote goes against the 'Brexit' camp. There is the danger, of course, that fascism continues to expand and becomes an even greater threat because of such a vote. I see the Common Market/EEC/EU as the greatest piece of international co-operation ever in my lifetime. It isn't perfect, far from it, but mutual interests are best served through peaceful discourse with some give and take, rather than open warfare where everybody loses except the extremely wealthy and the arms suppliers.

Tom

 

[tillson]

Tillson just what are you on about?
If you had been awake you would have realised I was responding to a post concerning the nature of Fascism, which I quite agree is a separate issue, still it gave you an opportunity so show your quite unique diplomatic skills, prompting me to ask, have you got some fetish over substance abuse by any chance?
You seem to have taken it as the insult of choice.

For the record, I don't smoke, drink, suffer from substance abuse, bet or lie.
And I am tolerant even of people who are lacking in the social skills.
Therefore your comments are always welcome, and quite revealing.
Perhaps you would do well to remember that.
In the words of the old proverb
"When people have reason to doubt your intelligence
Be careful what you say doesn't banish all doubt."

Then we share things in common. It is a shame that this EU referendum is so deviceive. I hope that we can draw a line under it on Friday, regardless of which way the vote goes, and return to a normal exchange of views on other less emotive subjects and put what has been said to each other permanently to one side.