Brexit, for once some facts.

[trex]

....
As I see it today, there are two issues we need to resolve: The first, obviously, is the referendum. The second is the worrying rise of right-wing extremism in this country and equally worryingly, the same trend in several other countries.
..

I am much more worried of the rise of the far right extremism. If Brexiters lose this time, they can come back and call for another referendum in the next Parliament. If we vote for Brexit this time, we can't rejoin the EU within a generation even if the majority wanted to.

 

[derf]

No, it doesn't.
It's totally legitimate to push for stricter control of immigration. Successive governments refused to discuss it, so now it's a chance for leave to shout about it.

well, successive governments have discussed it, but perhaps not quit ein the way some of the electorate wish they did. Corbyn was quoted as saying we wouldnt be able to control migration from teh EU a spart of it. That is (he may of cours ehave been misquoted) also discussing it. Australia is one of the worst climate polluting countries in the world. you might say its because its an ore producer for china, but isnt it also about value system thats reflected in points based migration. I guess its all academci since i dont really think anyoen expects leave to win. but i know quite a few skilled migrants who wouldnt stay if it had.

 

[gray198]

Cameron got a rough ride over it on BBC last night. Still tried to avoid answering any questions and kept going back to economic apocalypse if we leave. Getting bored now!!!

 

[trex]

I thought he did rather well, coming out fighting with the line "Look, if we want to vote to leave this organisation, let's vote to leave it, but let's not do it on the basis of three things that are completely untrue."

 

[oldgroaner]

Then we share things in common. It is a shame that this EU referendum is so deviceive. I hope that we can draw a line under it on Friday, regardless of which way the vote goes, and return to a normal exchange of views on other less emotive subjects and put what has been said to each other permanently to one side.

I'm with you all the way Tillson, normality will I'm sure return, and I bear you no malice for your remarks as I hope you bear none over mine!
When passions are roused, often conversations become heated.
As a greater man than me once said
"I don't agree with a word you say
But will fight to the death for your right to say it!"

 

[lectureral]

I have always felt that an out vote was unlikely and it seems to me to be increasingly clear that Remain will certainly win on Thursday. I do hope that will be the end of the sniping from the Europhobes.

 

[oldtom]

I have always felt that an out vote was unlikely and it seems to me to be increasingly clear that Remain will certainly win on Thursday. I do hope that will be the end of the sniping from the Europhobes.

I sincerely hope you have judged the situation correctly Al.

Tom

 

[trex]

I fear a narrow win for remain will strengthen ukip. Only when the EU tackles poverty that this problem will go away.

 

[tillson]

As you well know Tillson, I have always considered you to be one of the most intelligent and articulate contributors to this forum.

It, therefore, pains me to say this but as I'm certain my mind is still fully functional, I worry that yours may be misfiring somewhat, judging from some of your recent input.

As for your question about fascists; first, I would refer you to the dictionary definition I provided in #725.

Secondly, it is my belief that the main players in the Brexit campaign all meet that criteria. Specifically, I refer primarily to Farage, IDS, Johnson and Gove who, between them, don't have a compassionate bone in their bodies. Neither do they have any understanding of economics, or they choose to ignore such practicalities, preferring to rely upon their major themes, ie, blaming the EU for the country's ills and calling refugees economic migrants because these are easy targets with which racists, the poorly-educated and the ignorant find favour.

For me, it follows therefore, that those who choose to align themselves with the purveyors of hatred, discrimination and intolerance are, by definition, fascist also.

As I'm sure I mentioned previously, I have actually been involved in a very passive leafletting campaign in various locations which, to be frank, I have found to be rather futile and very disheartening, especially given the media coverage of recent weeks. You would not believe, though, the hostility demonstrated by many of those who disagree with our continuing EU membership.

The behaviour exhibited by some, is reminiscent of the scenes on our streets when Mosley was drumming up support back in the 1930s. You may think I exaggerate but, although I'm a big guy and can still look after myself, in spite of health matters, I did feel very uncomfortable and exposed on several occasions.

As I see it today, there are two issues we need to resolve: The first, obviously, is the referendum. The second is the worrying rise of right-wing extremism in this country and equally worryingly, the same trend in several other countries.

That second issue may resolve itself if the outcome of the vote goes against the 'Brexit' camp. There is the danger, of course, that fascism continues to expand and becomes an even greater threat because of such a vote. I see the Common Market/EEC/EU as the greatest piece of international co-operation ever in my lifetime. It isn't perfect, far from it, but mutual interests are best served through peaceful discourse with some give and take, rather than open warfare where everybody loses except the extremely wealthy and the arms suppliers.

Tom

Tom,

Many people who support leaving the EU are ordinary men and women who want to go to work, earn enough money to live a modest life, and feel a sense of security against something disrupt that.

Many of these people work alongside immigrants and they all get along quite nicely. However, they (immigrants included) have concerns about what continued and uncontrolled immigration will do for their future. They are concerned because no one supporting immigration has any semblance of a plan. The best offered, is that it will sort itself out. Or when our economy crashes, they will bugger off elsewhere. It's not good enough for a lot of people.

It's right for them to be concerned and it's right for them to ask what the plan is, but it is completely wrong to brand then as fascists and racists for asking.

I saw Cameron on the TV last night dithering, avoiding eye contact and trying to change the subject when immigration and in particular, Turkey joining the EU was mentioned. There is a very good clip of Cameron making a speech a short while ago saying he fully supported Turkey becoming a member and he would do all within his power to expedite this. In years gone by, this would have been forgotten, but the Internet has a nasty habit of pulling skeletons out of cupboards and refreshing memories.

All of this makes people suspicious of immigration. Why does Cameron dodge and duck and dive when asked legitimate questions? Why are people called fascists and racists for asking questions which are rarely answered truthfully. It's wrong to make these accusations about people's concerns and that is why you receive hostile responses.

Any way, as I said in an earlier post, I hope we can draw a line under this on Friday, regardless of the outcome v

 

[tillson]

I'm with you all the way Tillson, normality will I'm sure return, and I bear you no malice for your remarks as I hope you bear none over mine!
When passions are roused, often conversations become heated.
As a greater man than me once said
"I don't agree with a word you say
But will fight to the death for your right to say it!"

No, definitely no permanent hard feelings from me.

 

[tillson]

I fear a narrow win for remain will strengthen ukip. Only when the EU tackles poverty that this problem will go away.

I think an IN vote will strengthen UKIP because it will be a close vote, meaning a near 50% rate of dissatisfaction. Those people will need to turn somewhere and the other two larger parties (Lab & Con) offer no hope, since they support IN. So UKIP will benefit.

The whole public opinion thing can be likened to exciting a pendulum at its resonant frequency, it swings with increasing amplitude from right to left. I expect it to swing with a big surge to the right if we vote IN on Thursdsy. Especially so if the EU try to, "teach us a lesson" for being petulant.

 

[trex]

Farage should relinquish the job of leading ukip to Carswell for ukip to be more acceptable.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Many of these people work alongside immigrants and they all get along quite nicely. However, they (immigrants included) have concerns about what continued and uncontrolled immigration will do for their future. They are concerned because no one supporting immigration has any semblance of a plan. The best offered, is that it will sort itself out. Or when our economy crashes, they will bugger off elsewhere. It's not good enough for a lot of people.

It's right for them to be concerned and it's right for them to ask what the plan is, but it is completely wrong to brand then as fascists and racists for asking.

Many people used to be afraid of falling off the edge of the planet, but that was sorted out though education, because it was an irrational fear based on rumor and a lack of knowledge.

The fear you're talking about of immigration being a problem is the same. People have a fear of it because they don't understand and think there is a problem when there isn't. All the numbers from all the experts and all the un biased science, shows that immigrants do not cause a problem.

Its also been shown that even if they were a problem, that problem wouldn't be solved by leaving the EU.

So just like it wasn't a wise move to flee the planet in fear of falling off the edge, its not a wise move to flee the EU in an attempt to control immigration.

Business / NHS and others need these immigrants, thats whey they come here to WORK. If there was no work they would go to other places.

So what this country needs to do is, a) make sure we educate people about the need and impact of immigrants if they are worried about it, and b) make sure the public services are kept up to standard so that people don't blame immigrtants for a declining service, which isn't the immigrants fault.

Then we can all move on and be happy.

Leaving the EU will not, can not and physically won't solve any peoples problems with immigration, because we will always need overseas workers and they have to come from somwhere.

 

[oldtom]

However, they (immigrants included) have concerns about what continued and of uncontrolled immigration will do for their future.

All of this makes people suspicious of immigration.

Tillson, I'm afraid you have fallen into the trap of believing the rhetoric of fascism. Your seemingly innocuous plea that people, although I'm not quite sure to which people you refer or to how many, is centred upon the lie about 'uncontrolled' immigration.

Why is that a lie you may ask? It is a lie because Britain has never had uncontrolled immigration. Moreover, it is not exactly simple for foreigners to gain entry to the UK through legal channels.

The reason I bang on about the connection between the 'Brexit' propaganda and fascism is based on a well-known truth. That truth is the 'big lie' tactic, made infamous by the best-known fascists of the last century, the German Nazi party.

Wiki does a fairly concise piece about the Nazi 'big lie' usage, both by Goebells and Hitler and here is a quick link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie#Goebbels.27s_use_of_the_expression

If you can accept that it is untrue to use the expression, 'uncontrolled immigration' in such an important matter as the one to be determined on Thursday, then even the briefest evaluation of the other planks of the 'Brexit' campaign rhetoric will reveal a disturbing lack of genuine fact and truth.

There is more to the lie about immigration than simply the tactic of repeating the lie until people become so used to hearing it that they begin to believe it must be true. Facts about immigrant numbers are hidden or ignored by 'Brexit', or exaggerated so greatly in order to alarm. When people start to believe that 'uncontrolled immigration' is the problem and the truth, facts and statistics suggest otherwise, you know that creatures like Farage and his ilk have been successful in their use of the 'big lie' strategy.

What is incredible in all this is the reality that the UK has taken in less migrants over the last year or so than all the other major nations of the EU. To listen to the 'Brexit' spokesmen and women, it is easy to gain the impression that we have done more than our fair share. Even some non-EU nations have received more than the UK but you don't have to take my word for it. We have an office of national statistics and there is freedom of information which can provide comprehensive details.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

I think an IN vote will strengthen UKIP because it will be a close vote, meaning a near 50% rate of dissatisfaction. Those people will need to turn somewhere and the other two larger parties (Lab & Con) offer no hope, since they support IN. So UKIP will benefit.

The whole public opinion thing can be likened to exciting a pendulum at its resonant frequency, it swings with increasing amplitude from right to left. I expect it to swing with a big surge to the right if we vote IN on Thursdsy. Especially so if the EU try to, "teach us a lesson" for being petulant.

I'm a little curious as to your reasoning on the subject of the EU "teaching us a lesson if we vote IN"
What would they stand to gain by doing so, when we are showing support for the EU?

I can see why people may well turn to the UKIP in the event of a stay vote, but not if Brexit is chosen.
And what is your judgement of the desirability of a big swing in support of the UKIP after the referendum, do you see this a positive result?

 

[oldgroaner]

Farage should relinquish the job of leading ukip to Carswell for ukip to be more acceptable.

And if the vote goes the Brexit way he should be handed his P45 as an MEP, surely?

 

[BrendanJ]

I think an IN vote will strengthen UKIP because it will be a close vote, meaning a near 50% rate of dissatisfaction. Those people will need to turn somewhere and the other two larger parties (Lab & Con) offer no hope, since they support IN. So UKIP will benefit.

The whole public opinion thing can be likened to exciting a pendulum at its resonant frequency, it swings with increasing amplitude from right to left. I expect it to swing with a big surge to the right if we vote IN on Thursdsy. Especially so if the EU try to, "teach us a lesson" for being petulant.

By way of distraction you may wish to read the attached on the French 1992 referendum on Maastrict
http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1992/eirv19n39-19921002/eirv19n39-19921002_040-non_victory_in_frances_maastrich.pdf
The yes vote was 51% with about 70% turnout, so equally close as now.
The issues very similar. The conclusion was that EU further integration was finished, but still it plowed ahead
The current poling of France is much worse than then and the growth of the far right continues.
I predict a similar result both immediate and long term as the French one, until the EU collapses because of its continuous over reaching and lack of true accoutability to the people of Europe

 

[trex]

fewer French would vote to leave now.
Current estimate for Frexit is 44%.
I reckon we'll see about 40% Britons voting for Brexit

 

[oldgroaner]

By way of distraction you may wish to read the attached on the French 1992 referendum on Maastrict
http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1992/eirv19n39-19921002/eirv19n39-19921002_040-non_victory_in_frances_maastrich.pdf
The yes vote was 51% with about 70% turnout, so equally close as now.
The issues very similar. The conclusion was that EU further integration was finished, but still it plowed ahead
The current poling of France is much worse than then and the growth of the far right continues.
I predict a similar result both immediate and long term as the French one, until the EU collapses because of its continuous over reaching and lack of true accoutability to the people of Europe

And just how does it lack true accountability to the peoples of Europe?

 

[tillson]

And if the vote goes the Brexit way he should be handed his P45 as an MEP, surely?

Quite possibly. I suspect that UKIP will want to retain MEPs whilst the exit is negotiated though.

Strange isn't it that Farage is actually campaigning to end his own job. How many Westminster MPs would put cause before their own career?