the "democratic" USA/UK has given the world the 2008 financial crisis, much as it did in 1933. As many more infomred posters than me have pointed out over this thread, we have in mny ways much less represntation in a wesminster UK than under the EU. We are on differnet paradigms. For me europe has not failed economically - nor does USA or UK with its increasing rift between rich and poor (and pillaging Phillip greens and pensionless lifetime workers, and taxpayers picking up the tab, again and again and again for the super rich, while teh disabled loose benefits) represent some kind of economic success. But as i say we are on differnet paradigms, i am not so concerned with the economy or migration, i think there are much mor einteresting thinsg to be involved with.
Brexit, for once some facts.
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Um, interesting post but honestly not sure whether I completely understood your point
I also blame blatant greed and capitalistic controls for the financial crisis, but don't tell me The EU is an antidote for that.
The rift between rich and poor is growing all over, including Europe, look at Greece, again I fail to see their solutions on that
I too do not believe the referendum is about economics which cannot be proved either way, or migration which is simply a symptom of a wider problem
To get to a solution then involves what? ( I purposely leave that question open)
The part of the 'Leave' campaign about which their supporters just flatly refuse to concede is that it is mostly populated, not by democrats seeking to restore some mythical coverall, judicial/economic/political sovereign control, but by fascists.
Even if there were the slightest possibility that our own country would not suffer hugely, (and I believe it will), from withdrawal from the Euro club we begged, yes begged, to enter, outside of the EU we would be at the mercy of a whole raft of countries. Many of those are not our friends right now and many more will probably take a real dislike to us for our arrogant attitude towards other member states. It's probably worth mentioning at the present time that our football supporters do the country no favours in that regard although I'm well aware that those travelling fans from one or two other countries are no better.
The 'Leave' advocates seem unable to accept, or are unconcerned by, the overt fascist doctrine that has headlined their campaign right from the start. I really believe that many of them don't know what the word fascist means and even if they do, are incapable of believing that such evil can possibly exist in this day and age.
Fascism existed not only in places like Germany, Spain and Italy in the last century but here too in the UK. Not only was it present, some of our major newspapers fully supported the movement in Germany and backed the Mosley 'blackshirt' thugs in this country. Fascism operates insidiously to begin with but if allowed to prosper and grow, it becomes an almost unstoppable force but not a force for good.
Some of those who contribute to this thread appear to me to be fully entrenched in fascist dogma from the comments they make. The New Statesman put out an article almost a year ago which picked up on social changes noticed by a journalist who had been out of the country for a year. It's an interesting read and I link to it here:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/europe-shouldn-t-worry-about-migrants-it-should-worry-about-creeping-fascism
Tom
Even if there were the slightest possibility that our own country would not suffer hugely, (and I believe it will), from withdrawal from the Euro club we begged, yes begged, to enter, outside of the EU we would be at the mercy of a whole raft of countries. Many of those are not our friends right now and many more will probably take a real dislike to us for our arrogant attitude towards other member states. It's probably worth mentioning at the present time that our football supporters do the country no favours in that regard although I'm well aware that those travelling fans from one or two other countries are no better.
The 'Leave' advocates seem unable to accept, or are unconcerned by, the overt fascist doctrine that has headlined their campaign right from the start. I really believe that many of them don't know what the word fascist means and even if they do, are incapable of believing that such evil can possibly exist in this day and age.
Fascism existed not only in places like Germany, Spain and Italy in the last century but here too in the UK. Not only was it present, some of our major newspapers fully supported the movement in Germany and backed the Mosley 'blackshirt' thugs in this country. Fascism operates insidiously to begin with but if allowed to prosper and grow, it becomes an almost unstoppable force but not a force for good.
Some of those who contribute to this thread appear to me to be fully entrenched in fascist dogma from the comments they make. The New Statesman put out an article almost a year ago which picked up on social changes noticed by a journalist who had been out of the country for a year. It's an interesting read and I link to it here:
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/europe-shouldn-t-worry-about-migrants-it-should-worry-about-creeping-fascism
Tom
i'm afraid i (naturally) dont have a solution or answer for the financial crisis or the migration resulting from the destabilised middleast. But I squarely lay the blame for both with USA/UK - in its financial systems and destabilisng foreign policy. And i really dont blame the EU for either. I dislike politicians as much as anyone else, but i greatly prefer Merkel's stance on migration to any of the disingenuous, self serving line dancing the Tories have come up with. in the end each of us will make outr own decision about the referendum, i'll vote in with my reservations because it feels part of a shared way forward personally and professionally. If stay wins, it wont be utopia, but IMHO it willl be so much better than the hell farage or boris woudl preside over.
I respect your view
Hi old Tom, still hiding in the wings, why don't you share your reservations?
thanks, all this agreement (this is beginning to feel like group therapy) is of course out of step with the whole culture of the debate, we're supposed to progress from vehement disagreement to launching attacks on each other ; )
And this is why your are wrong and all your comments are distorted accordingly
Remember 50% of th electorate (don't hold me to the precisenumbers) are infavourof Brexit
Do you really believe all are racists, stop this delusion and try to recognise the real objection most of us have instead of focus sing on the east targets, which is simply politics and self serving
"leave" hasnt exactly done itself any favours by making migration so centre stage to its argument (with its xenophobic overtones) - especially given that it is such a discredited (factually) argument?
Congratulations on ignoring the fact that representatives of these said people and our own Govenrment play a big part in everything that goes on, which infers of course is than any disconnection is between Government and people, and your statement
"it does not have the support and enthusiasm of the majority of the peoples of Europe, increasingly less so."
Is merely the so called "Truth" as reported by the UK press, who's speciality consist of writing whatever Murdoch or his friends considers the Truth to be.
You need to prefix those remarks with IMHO.
Tom isn't asserting that people like yourself are tainted with racism and bigotry, simply that the leading voices of the campaign have questionable agenders, or are you asserting they are driven by the purest motives?
That would be absurd as the leading lights of the "Stay" campaign are equally to blame aren't they?
So the list of benefits, Holidays, Environment, etc.etc., has precious little to do with the man in the street?
Well in my case it brought an end to me sitting on piles of Asbestos at work in ultra noisy polluted conditions, oh, and of course I went from getting 2 weeks a years unpaid holiday, etc etc. and there was also the unpaid overtime, and unlimited hours you could work and drive.
Do you imagine that the holidays you now enjoy would ever have happened under any UK Government by choice?
So permit me to disagree, but it seems you are eager to go back to those days?
I believe the name for that is Conservative Government. (but on the credit side the rich do very nicely thank you.)
ER. isn't that what we have the UK Government for? and a sterling job it isn't doing, is it?
Whereas our society is what exactly? tell us what the BIG difference is?
Why would they want to give benefits? because they are naturally philanthropic?
Or could it be that they actually have very good reasons that our gutter press twist utterly out of shape so the reason becomes evil in intent?
Old Tom does not have a clue about what 'Fascism', really is.
He would be shocked to discover that it is really a Marxist heresy.
The EU is inherently in its construction a fascist dictatorship.
Democracy has no place in the EU.
He would be shocked to discover that it is really a Marxist heresy.
The EU is inherently in its construction a fascist dictatorship.
Democracy has no place in the EU.
It appears that you have even less of an idea than tom does!
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Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
OK you are so clever, explain.
Do you know the origins of fascism.
Have you any idea of the 1890 Parisian anti rationalists?
Do you know that Mussolini was imprisoned for his Marxist agitation?
It really bugs me when people throw the word fascist about without really knowing what it is.
The words 'Nazi Charity'
really put lefties in a fit.
Simply does not accord with their world view.
really put lefties in a fit.
Simply does not accord with their world view.