Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

The New European

@TheNewEuropean
·
53m
Michael Gove admits Boris Johnson missed five Cobra meetings as he was not required https://theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/michael-gove-on-boris-johnson-and-cobra-meeting-attendance-1-6613760…


Replying to @TheNewEuropean
oldgroaner@oldgroaner

Nice little knife job you did there Gollum! one of your best, which is quite a feat as there are many to choose from, Mr Murdoch will make sure you get a mention in dispatches in tomorrows papers!
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[flecc]

I’ve just read the “leaked” government strategy to end lockdown in The Mail. It seems like over 70s are being abandoned and they can stay locked down for a couple of years. (Good luck with that).

As I've posted elsewhere, the Mail has that wrong, they are not on lockdown, just social distancing like everyone else.

I see the loosening of the regulations being lead by a combination of health and economic factors:

First will be the least vulnerable middle years, allowed back to normal working and travel without social distancing from each other, this to save the economy from meltdown.

Second the next least vulnerable, the children allowed back to school, allowing the part timers to get back to work, also helping the economy.

Last to derestrict from travel and social distancing rules will be the most vulnerable, the over 70s. I foresee a boom in the sale of hair dyes and younger clothes.
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[Wicky]

Whereas the Observer (and other) articles are entirely right in their damning allegations.

Well good news from Gove - Boris didn't catch it at a COBRA Meeting...

 

[Nev]

I don't think a solution to ending the lockdown exists.

I think there are solutions to ending the lockdown, all you have to do is look at what several other countries have done and have had far less infections and deaths than we have. South Korea would be one example, they haven't even needed to have a proper lock down there.

My worry is that I have my doubts this government is capable of putting systems and procedures in place so that a gradual easing of restrictions could begin in a few weeks time.

We will need a massive increase in testing capability together with swift and efficient contact tracing. This will need hundreds of thousands of people involved, perhaps use some of the 750,000 volunteers that came forward. Phone apps should be used like they have in other countries to help in the tracing of people who have been in close contact with anyone who has been infected.

Anyone tested should have the results of the test in as short a time as possible, I think some countries can do this in just a few hours if that's the case then we should be able to do it too.

Wearing of mouth coverings in busy public places should be strongly advised perhaps even made compulsory. Hand sanitizer and free masks should be available in these busy public places (shopping arcades, train and tube stations etc.)

People employed to regularly wipe down with the appropriate chemicals things like hand rails, cash dispensing machines, lift buttons etc. People employed at entrances to shops, stations and other busy areas to take peoples temperatures using the infra red type detectors but the medical ones not the industrial ones that are inaccurate.

I haven't needed to come up with any of these things myself, these are all things I have seen taking place in other countries which have coped far better than we have.

If we could get all this in place then a gradual easing of restrictions could happen. but pubs, cinemas and cafes would be well down the list of things that should be opened first.

 

[RossG]

I'm finding this social distancing claptrap to be just that...it doesn't exist. Reading through the southern news media today I note a group of walkers were trapped by a landslide over the Isle of Wight, that necessitated people being called out to rescue them so all was well in the end.

So let's look at the story in more detail, it says a group of eight people were caught out by this slip but goes to some length to explain these people were observing social distancing rules of course plus they were only taking their daily exercise. One wonders if this group carried some kind of measuring device to ensure the 2mtr rule was observed, and would their normal daily exercise cover walking under a dangerous crumbling cliff anyway ?
I happen to know that spot very well, there are signs up advising walkers not to proceed along the waters edge by the cliffs, I should also add I have never seen anyone walking in that area anyway because of the dangers.

 

[oldgroaner]

I've certainly shrunk a bit from my average height days of younger years, plus average heights are still rapidly increasing.

In the most recent decades it baffles me that tall teenagers who could rival a broomstick end up little more than a decade later with barrel bodies and pot bellies.
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The answer is they are more efficient, it took me over forty years to achieve what they have in ten!

 

[sjpt]

I'm finding this social distancing claptrap to be just that...it doesn't exist.

Yes quite a few people are ignoring it or being plain stupid. But many more are following, at least as well as they can.

The government have been late and very stupid in lots of ways, but this is a sensible measure and it is (almost certainly) helping a lot.

 

[oldgroaner]

I think there are solutions to ending the lockdown, all you have to do is look at what several other countries have done and have had far less infections and deaths than we have. South Korea would be one example, they haven't even needed to have a proper lock down there.

My worry is that I have my doubts this government is capable of putting systems and procedures in place so that a gradual easing of restrictions could begin in a few weeks time.

We will need a massive increase in testing capability together with swift and efficient contact tracing. This will need hundreds of thousands of people involved, perhaps use some of the 750,000 volunteers that came forward. Phone apps should be used like they have in other countries to help in the tracing of people who have been in close contact with anyone who has been infected.

Anyone tested should have the results of the test in as short a time as possible, I think some countries can do this in just a few hours if that's the case then we should be able to do it too.

Wearing of mouth coverings in busy public places should be strongly advised perhaps even made compulsory. Hand sanitizer and free masks should be available in these busy public places (shopping arcades, train and tube stations etc.)

People employed to regularly wipe down with the appropriate chemicals things like hand rails, cash dispensing machines, lift buttons etc. People employed at entrances to shops, stations and other busy areas to take peoples temperatures using the infra red type detectors but the medical ones not the industrial ones that are inaccurate.

I haven't needed to come up with any of these things myself, these are all things I have seen taking place in other countries which have coped far better than we have.

If we could get all this in place then a gradual easing of restrictions could happen. but pubs, cinemas and cafes would be well down the list of things that should be opened first.

An additional but very necessary additional precaution would be to tar and feather every Tory politician, on the grounds that will improve visual recognition and give the public the chance to take evasive action, for after who knows how many hands they are likely to have shaken?

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

I do think a solution to the lockdown exists. It always did. It is called testing. You continue the lockdown until the number of clusters is small and the rates of new infection dropping rapidly ..and you know that by testing . Then every new case identified gets the full contract tracing protocol and isolation for the required period . Then the numbers get really small. I think that the football season is a washout.. but that's of little importance. But restaurants ,take aways etc can start up. People wearing masks on surface transport.. but only when testing is quick and sure.

Isn’t Coronavirus testing a bit like a car MoT? Valid only at the time of testing.

Five minutes after the Coronavirus test, that person could become infected by another person and spread the virus for another one to two weeks before symptoms develop.

I know infection rates are lower in those countries that test extensively, but they tend to have very strict lockdown measures in parallel too.

Personally, I don’t think testing is going to make much difference without keeping the lockdown measures.

 

[oldgroaner]

LBC@LBC
·
1h
The PM was accused in a Sunday newspaper of not taking charge early on in the UK's Covid-19 response. Maajid Nawaz dubbed the claim a "hatchet job". @MaajidNawaz | #Coronavirus

oldgroaner@oldgroaner
How can you tell "half truths" about Boris? it's an Oxymoron! "Since when have even "half truths" been associated with Boris? to claim such a thing could ruin his reputation

 

[flecc]

I know infection rates are lower in those countries that test extensively, but they tend to have very strict lockdown measures in parallel too.

South Korea didn't, they went straight into mass testing at the outset and had hardly any lockdown, their economy little hurt as a result and their control of Covid-19 has been excellent:

"Although South Korea isn’t out of danger yet, it reported only 47 new cases on 6th April. To date, there have been 10,284 confirmed cases and 186 deaths. It has therefore been able to avoid the death and devastation seen elsewhere. For comparison, 5,373 have died in the UK and 51,608 hospitalised patients have tested positive for COVID-19."

Info link
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[Barry Shittpeas]

South Korea didn't, they went straight into mass testing at the outset and had hardly any lockdown, their economy little hurt as a result and their control of Covid-19 has been excellent:

"Although South Korea isn’t out of danger yet, it reported only 47 new cases on 6th April. To date, there have been 10,284 confirmed cases and 186 deaths. It has therefore been able to avoid the death and devastation seen elsewhere. For comparison, 5,373 have died in the UK and 51,608 hospitalised patients have tested positive for COVID-19."

Info link
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Im not convinced that testing is the long term answer, particularly in this country. Without a vaccine, antibody testing might work, particularly for key workers.

Teachers for example are going to be taking a gamble, with potentially deadly consequences, when entering a school crammed with 1000 kids running around and licking things. Many teachers are going to die.

It would make sense to wait until it can be established if teachers have a level of immunity before sending them to their deaths.

 

[oyster]

I am seeing more and more people claiming that in pretty much any time from October to March, they had a spectacularly awful dose of something. When they compare the symptom list, they are convinced there is at least a reasonable chance it was covid-19.

Often, I would simply ignore this. But I do know (and sometimes can check back) quite a number of these people did post about their illness at the time, or very shortly after. Some had travel itenaries which would backup the accounts. Quite a number went to see their doctors - even prescribed antibiotics for consequent bacterial lung infections, etc.

Yes, I know the window has now gone back to 13th September. Is it possible that we are in a second wave? Or some complicating factors are involved?

The possibility that worried me was the thought that if we don't gain full immunity, perhaps a second dose is worse than the first?

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

Germany 9 U.K. 530 over the last 24 hours. And Dr Err Ahem says we shouldn’t make comparisons between countries because of recording differences.

I’m sorry Doc, a difference of that magnitude is not down to recording differences. She is peddling the government BS. She should be struck off.

 

[Danidl]

Isn’t Coronavirus testing a bit like a car MoT? Valid only at the time of testing.

Five minutes after the Coronavirus test, that person could become infected by another person and spread the virus for another one to two weeks before symptoms develop.

I know infection rates are lower in those countries that test extensively, but they tend to have very strict lockdown measures in parallel too.

Personally, I don’t think testing is going to make much difference without keeping the lockdown measures.

You are ignoring the time lag. It takes maybe 10 to 14 days from initial infection for the person to be a risk to others. In previous postings my suggestion was that Health staff be tested weekly or if in extremely vunerable patients , twice weekly. The real cost of the test is pennies , and next day results possible. In fact with a new Abbott laboratories test, .. (cost unknown) , the result is available in 15 minutes.
Many Decades ago I worked for a major medical diagnostics company and those machines would characterise 90 samples per hour in a wet chemistry. 24/7 .. just pump in reagents. Load vials of tests and walk away.

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

I am seeing more and more people claiming that in pretty much any time from October to March, they had a spectacularly awful dose of something. When they compare the symptom list, they are convinced there is at least a reasonable chance it was covid-19.

Often, I would simply ignore this. But I do know (and sometimes can check back) quite a number of these people did post about their illness at the time, or very shortly after. Some had travel itenaries which would backup the accounts. Quite a number went to see their doctors - even prescribed antibiotics for consequent bacterial lung infections, etc.

Yes, I know the window has now gone back to 13th September. Is it possible that we are in a second wave? Or some complicating factors are involved?

The possibility that worried me was the thought that if we don't gain full immunity, perhaps a second dose is worse than the first?

I’m 60% sure I had it in January. All of my symptoms matched Coronavirus, except breathing difficulties, but fortunately, I do have very good lung capacity. I’m just about fully recovered now.

I must admit that I am worried about people having zero immunity post recovery. That would make the future of society very challenging.

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

You are ignoring the time lag. It takes maybe 10 to 14 days from initial infection for the person to be a risk to others. In previous postings my suggestion was that Health staff be tested weekly or if in extremely vunerable patients , twice weekly. The real cost of the test is pennies , and next day results possible. In fact with a new Abbott laboratories test, .. (cost unknown) , the result is available in 15 minutes.
Many Decades ago I worked for a major medical diagnostics company and those machines would characterise 90 samples per hour in a wet chemistry. 24/7 .. just pump in reagents. Load vials of tests and walk away.

I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that once infected, you can be a spreader for 7 to 14 days prior to any symptoms develop. The spreading risk begins very soon after initial infection. That’s my understanding, but I will be corrected if I’ve got it wrong.

 

[RossG]

I too had a touch of something nasty back in January thanks to climbing aboard a bug infested bus.
Wasn't you on that bus was it Barry you Super Spreader you

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

It’s now emerging that Johnson skipped vital planning meetings as the Coronavirus situation developed.

I would think this his true. His reckless behaviour which led to him becoming infected suggests that he didn’t take Coronavirus seriously. It appears to have been a big joke to him. He has now killed people as a result of his inaction.

 

[Wicky]

I am seeing more and more people claiming that in pretty much any time from October to March, they had a spectacularly awful dose of something. When they compare the symptom list, they are convinced there is at least a reasonable chance it was covid-19.

Often, I would simply ignore this. But I do know (and sometimes can check back) quite a number of these people did post about their illness at the time, or very shortly after. Some had travel itenaries which would backup the accounts. Quite a number went to see their doctors - even prescribed antibiotics for consequent bacterial lung infections, etc.

Yes, I know the window has now gone back to 13th September. Is it possible that we are in a second wave? Or some complicating factors are involved?

The possibility that worried me was the thought that if we don't gain full immunity, perhaps a second dose is worse than the first?

Don't think so, if it had been around Oct>Winter and with its infectivity then hospitals would have been chocka + many deaths.

This is alarming and a spanner in the works to breaking out of lockdown until a tested and safe vaccine becomes widely available.

Vaccine-induced immunity 'could last longer'

The leader of a team working on a coronavirus vaccine says scientists believe its possible to become infected with Covid-19 more than once.

www.bbc.co.uk

The leader of a team working on a vaccine, Professor Sarah Gilbert, from Oxford University said scientists believed it was possible to become infected with Covid-19 more than once.

She added that a vaccine-induced immunity could last longer than the infected-induced immunity.