Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldtom]

In my childhood, I was given to understand that Winston Churchill was a national hero. When I learned more of history as I grew older, I realised that he wasn't quite the brilliant leader that many had been brainwashed into believing. That is not to say the man had no merits; on the contrary, he was a gifted politician and great orator. Unfortunately, his military skills were not of such a high order and his early life reflects that fact.

Nonetheless, he understood after WW2 that a united Europe had much to offer and he was a very pro-Europe advocate. Some research by the 'Remain' camp has brought us a couple of things which might surprise the 'Brexit' people, many of whom are extremely xenophobic, indeed far too much so for my liking.

The attached image contains text, (in the red banners), from Churchill a long time ago:



The following is from Ted Heath, former conservative PM:

"I knew Winston Churchill, I worked with him, I stayed with him at his home at Chartwell and I have read his speeches many times. I can assure you that Winston Churchill was no Euro-sceptic. Can anyone seriously imagine any Euro-sceptic today saying, as Churchill did in his renowned Zurich speech 50 years ago, that our task "is to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe"?" - Former PM Heath, writing in 1996 on his friend and colleague.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

I have just been provided with a copy of the last article written by the late Jo Cox and I attach it here for those who may be interested.

“With many voters still making up their minds about a decision that will shape the future of our country, Oxford University’s Migration Observatory offered a stark warning that despite offering the world the Leave campaign cannot guarantee what would happen to migration if we left.

Most voters recognise that our country has reaped many benefits from immigration, from the brilliant doctors in our NHS to the skilled workers helping our economy to grow. Yet across the country people face everyday worries about job security, school places and GP appointments.

In the last two weeks of the campaign voters should know that despite these legitimate concerns, Brexit is not the answer. Here’s why:

First, Brexit doesn’t guarantee that migration will come down. In fact, a more liberal approach to non-EU immigration – as advocated by the Leave camp - could actually see it increase.
Australia – whose points-based system is so admired by Outers - has twice as many migrants per person than we do.

The whole purpose of their system is to allow businesses to control who comes into their country. For us this would lead to an increase in cheap labour, bringing down wages and doing nothing to ease voter concerns about insecure employment.

Voters also need to know that the free movement of EU citizens to Britain will not automatically stop if we left.

The only way to do that is to leave the single market – an act of economic self-destruction that would be catastrophic for businesses and jobs across the country.

Second, we can do far more to deal with the pressures caused by migration from inside the EU. Labour has long pushed for an end to the payment of benefits to people who don't live permanently in this country, and for a major extension of the time EU migrants have to wait before being able to claim benefits - a commitment secured by the Prime Minister as part of the renegotiation deal.

We can also help communities facing the greatest pressure from migration. Since 2001 EU migrants have contributed £20 billion more to our economy than they’ve taken out in benefits. This money must go quickly to areas where migrants are living, to fund schools and health services.

This will ensure that people come to this country knowing they need to play by the rules and work hard, and will reassure Brits that we have a fair, under control system that works for everyone.

And finally, the overall benefits of EU membership are massive. From businesses in Yorkshire to the President of the United States - and pretty much everyone in between - there is now an unprecedented consensus that leaving the EU would hurt our economy and hit our pockets.

We cannot allow voters to fall for the spin that a vote to leave is the only way to deal with concerns about immigration.

We can do far more to address both the level and impact of immigration while remaining in the EU. I very rarely agree with the Prime Minister but on this he’s right: we are stronger, safer and better off in.”

Tom

 

[trex]

bookies have now put the chance of Brexit to just 27%

 

[oldgroaner]

Good, there's one more vote down the drain

No, a vote down the drain would be for the schizophrenic conservative party, that like wurzel gummage has both silly and sensible heads that swap at random

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[BrendanJ]

In my childhood, I was given to understand that Winston Churchill was a national hero. When I learned more of history as I grew older, I realised that he wasn't quite the brilliant leader that many had been brainwashed into believing. That is not to say the man had no merits; on the contrary, he was a gifted politician and great orator. Unfortunately, his military skills were not of such a high order and his early life reflects that fact.

Nonetheless, he understood after WW2 that a united Europe had much to offer and he was a very pro-Europe advocate. Some research by the 'Remain' camp has brought us a couple of things which might surprise the 'Brexit' people, many of whom are extremely xenophobic, indeed far too much so for my liking.

The attached image contains text, (in the red banners), from Churchill a long time ago:

View attachment 14417

The following is from Ted Heath, former conservative PM:

"I knew Winston Churchill, I worked with him, I stayed with him at his home at Chartwell and I have read his speeches many times. I can assure you that Winston Churchill was no Euro-sceptic. Can anyone seriously imagine any Euro-sceptic today saying, as Churchill did in his renowned Zurich speech 50 years ago, that our task "is to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe"?" - Former PM Heath, writing in 1996 on his friend and colleague.

Tom

Reading those words in red

In my childhood, I was given to understand that Winston Churchill was a national hero. When I learned more of history as I grew older, I realised that he wasn't quite the brilliant leader that many had been brainwashed into believing. That is not to say the man had no merits; on the contrary, he was a gifted politician and great orator. Unfortunately, his military skills were not of such a high order and his early life reflects that fact.

Nonetheless, he understood after WW2 that a united Europe had much to offer and he was a very pro-Europe advocate. Some research by the 'Remain' camp has brought us a couple of things which might surprise the 'Brexit' people, many of whom are extremely xenophobic, indeed far too much so for my liking.

The attached image contains text, (in the red banners), from Churchill a long time ago:

View attachment 14417

The following is from Ted Heath, former conservative PM:

"I knew Winston Churchill, I worked with him, I stayed with him at his home at Chartwell and I have read his speeches many times. I can assure you that Winston Churchill was no Euro-sceptic. Can anyone seriously imagine any Euro-sceptic today saying, as Churchill did in his renowned Zurich speech 50 years ago, that our task "is to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe"?" - Former PM Heath, writing in 1996 on his friend and colleague.

Tom

Reading those words in red I can't help feeling that that sums up what is currently wrong with Europe, it does not have the support and enthusiasm of the majority of the peoples of Europe, increasingly less so.
Add to that it is completely disconnected from those people and appears to ignore those views in favour of its own agenda sums it up for me and is why I will vote leave

 

[oldgroaner]

I hope there's sufficient remnants of decency left to prevent that happening.

And of course it could easily backlash anyway.
.

Scraping the bottom of the barrel with that myth tillson!

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[BrendanJ]

I have just been provided with a copy of the last article written by the late Jo Cox and I attach it here for those who may be interested.

“With many voters still making up their minds about a decision that will shape the future of our country, Oxford University’s Migration Observatory offered a stark warning that despite offering the world the Leave campaign cannot guarantee what would happen to migration if we left.

Most voters recognise that our country has reaped many benefits from immigration, from the brilliant doctors in our NHS to the skilled workers helping our economy to grow. Yet across the country people face everyday worries about job security, school places and GP appointments.

In the last two weeks of the campaign voters should know that despite these legitimate concerns, Brexit is not the answer. Here’s why:

First, Brexit doesn’t guarantee that migration will come down. In fact, a more liberal approach to non-EU immigration – as advocated by the Leave camp - could actually see it increase.
Australia – whose points-based system is so admired by Outers - has twice as many migrants per person than we do.

The whole purpose of their system is to allow businesses to control who comes into their country. For us this would lead to an increase in cheap labour, bringing down wages and doing nothing to ease voter concerns about insecure employment.

Voters also need to know that the free movement of EU citizens to Britain will not automatically stop if we left.

The only way to do that is to leave the single market – an act of economic self-destruction that would be catastrophic for businesses and jobs across the country.

Second, we can do far more to deal with the pressures caused by migration from inside the EU. Labour has long pushed for an end to the payment of benefits to people who don't live permanently in this country, and for a major extension of the time EU migrants have to wait before being able to claim benefits - a commitment secured by the Prime Minister as part of the renegotiation deal.

We can also help communities facing the greatest pressure from migration. Since 2001 EU migrants have contributed £20 billion more to our economy than they’ve taken out in benefits. This money must go quickly to areas where migrants are living, to fund schools and health services.

This will ensure that people come to this country knowing they need to play by the rules and work hard, and will reassure Brits that we have a fair, under control system that works for everyone.

And finally, the overall benefits of EU membership are massive. From businesses in Yorkshire to the President of the United States - and pretty much everyone in between - there is now an unprecedented consensus that leaving the EU would hurt our economy and hit our pockets.

We cannot allow voters to fall for the spin that a vote to leave is the only way to deal with concerns about immigration.

We can do far more to address both the level and impact of immigration while remaining in the EU. I very rarely agree with the Prime Minister but on this he’s right: we are stronger, safer and better off in.”

Tom

Oh, so old Tom , let's not exploit this tragic event then, what a joke

 

[oldgroaner]

I expect a big push from remain to implant the notion into people's minds that a vote to leave is somehow a vote in support of Jo Cox's killer.

It is almost inevitable that in the coming days it will be "uncovered" that as a 6 year old, the killer walked to and from infant school with another child. That child has now grown into a man who wishes to leave the EU!!!! Or something else equally tenuous.

Rest easy,Tillson no one is going to do such a thing, it would be idiotic to even think such absurd thoughts

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[timidtom]

I'm just a tad worried that if Remain win the vote on Thursday all those talented Brexiters will up sticks, resign their jobs and emigrate to Iraq and similar countries and build schools and hospitals there, perhaps never to return to the UK. How will we manage, bereft of such talent? We'll have a dreadful shortage of politicians and journalists. Oh deary, deary, me!

 

[flecc]

The attached image contains text from Churchill a long time ago:

If Churchill was around today, I think he might in his inimitable way say this about the referendum campaign:

Never - in the field of human verbal conflict

Has so much - been said

by - so many

to such little - effect.
.

 

[BrendanJ]

I'm just a tad worried that if Remain win the vote on Thursday all those talented Brexiters will up sticks, resign their jobs and emigrate to Iraq and similar countries and build schools and hospitals there, perhaps never to return to the UK. How will we manage, bereft of such talent? We'll have a dreadful shortage of politicians and journalists. Oh deary, deary, me!

Or in the case of a Brexit the other half may go to live in France, let's say on a farm and enjoy CAP until the end of their days in Euro utopia. As most of them are on benefits then will surely not be missed

 

[trex]

I would have thought people on benefits are the ones who don't get much from being in the EU.

 

[tillson]

Mary had a little lamb
It’s fleece as white as snow
And everywhere that Mary went
The lamb was sure to go

Mrs Merkel had a little lamb
It’s fleece was made of gold
On all demands that Merkel made
It did as it was told

Come come little lamb
I will feed you bread and water
Then gently take you by the hand
And lead you to the slaughter

English lamb’s the sweetest
To have on Euros plate
So the European Council
Pray we’ll take the bait

Mr Junker and his Wolf Pack
Are set to break our will
With contempt for ‘ Little Englanders’
They circle for the kill

This one time in history
Not one drop of Blood is shed
Will we meekly just roll over
And climb into their bed

Hearty British Lions
Should we play their little game
Turn into a flock of sheep
And hang our heads in shame

So listen Up you sons and daughters
Don’t give democracy away
If you close your eyes – hope for the best
You will surely RUE THE DAY

 

[BrendanJ]

I would have thought people on benefits are the ones who don't get much from being in the EU.

Oh really, the main reason that the labour party are such vociferous supporters of the EU is precisely what then?
The culture of the EU is all about benefits
Benefits for the French farmers
Benefits for the newcomers, until they are hooked
Benefits for the politicians including the redundant Uk politicians

It's benefits street, which is why it is almost bankrupt, economically, democratically and frankly morally

 

[derf]

Oh really, the main reason that the labour party are such vociferous supporters of the EU is precisely what then?

i think this is projection - one description of which is "hating most in others what we fear most in ourselves". The fact that brexiters are obsessed with benefits and whatever they can take from the world and others does not mean everyone is. I'm a labour party supporter and I'm at work on this lovely sunday.

 

[BrendanJ]

i think this is projection - one description of which is "hating most in others what we fear most in ourselves". The fact that brexiters are obsessed with benefits and whatever they can take from the world and others does not mean everyone is. I'm a labour party supporter and I'm at work on this lovely sunday.

Get on with your work!

 

[derf]

Get on with your work!

yup, i do, and enjoy it (probably as much as a pedelecer does reading about new ebikes, i love what i do). i know this is moralistic, but if brexiters saw the world as an interesting place one could enjoy doing things in they might be less traumatised by migration

 

[trex]

@BrendanJ labour support for EU is about protection for part time workers, environment at work and holidays. The EU does not do much for people out of work.

 

[BrendanJ]

yup, i do, and enjoy it (probably as much as a pedelecer does reading about new ebikes, i love what i do). i know this is moralistic, but if brexiters saw the world as an interesting place one could enjoy doing things in they might be less traumatised by migration

Derf
That's what you have to get your head around, brexiteers does not just comprise of right wing fascists that are obsessed with imagration. It is a broad camp and not a party. For me it is not about imagration although the lack of control is an issue, it is more about the economic failure of Europe, the unnacoutability and the vision which I believe is doomed to failure. When you give up on democracy and accountability, you ultimately get what you are given

 

[BrendanJ]

@BrendanJ labour support for EU is about protection for part time workers, environment at work and holidays. The EU does not do much for people out of work.

Trex, believe it or not I am profoundly a supporter of your first sentence , but that does not have to come from Europe.
And as far as your 2nd sentence, the eu is incapable of helping the jobless and frankly doesn't care, it's answer is simply move to were the jobs are. Now in the US this might work even though it leads to a fragmented society
But it clearly is not a solution for a multi language and cultural area such as EU
The Eu is a political construct with precious little to do with the man in the street,