Brexit, for once some facts.

Like you, I don't know if the people depicted are asylum seekers refugees or economic migrants. What was it that made you assume that the people in the picture where refugees? Was it because the word refugee is more emotive than the word immigrant? Were you deliberately trying to blur the line in the hope that you could claim that Farage wants to turn his back on those in genuine need? Was that it?

My interpretation is that the picture was used to illustrate the fact that there are currently large numbers of people on the move from one country to another. When people move in the numbers that we are currently seeing, it does not allow the countries who receive them to grow their population naturally through a steady increase in birthrate. This inevitably puts an un-natural and on un-planned pressure on services and infrastructure. I think we are seeing this pressure in doctors waiting rooms, school classroom sizes, and social service type activities being unable to cope with a rapidly rising work load. This I would call a route to breaking point unless some form of population control is implemented.

We cannot take in every single person that wants to come to this country. The fairest way to put in place controls to allow people to move here based on merit. That may be skills based, genuine asylum or other specified factor. In a nutshell, what I am saying is that controls need to be put in place and the current chaotic system ended.

I don't know if leaving the EU will achieve this, but as things stand today continued membership doesn't seem to offer much hope. I can't see the logic in continuing along a path that has failed to deliver. Whenever I meet a problem in life, I try something else. If that doesn't work I'll try a different approach and I think that is what the EU referendum offers, a chance to try something else.

Immigration is a big concern to a karge section of the population, many of who are recent immigrants into the UK. I know that a similar number of people share the opposite view, but that does not mean that it is racist or wrong to hold these concerns.

David Cameron, rightly or wrongly, pledged to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands. That was popular. Hiwever, he has failed in the most spectacular and high profile of ways. People see this and believe that he has failed because of the EU.
omg, ok ... so deluded was the correct answer.

WE ARE NOT AT BREAKING POINT BECAUSE OF IMMIGRATION, if you even think we are at breaking point (which I don't think we are) its because of a lack of investment in the services you've talked about. An influx of people who pay taxes and input into the economy is a benefit to the system not a drain on it.

What kind of economic migrant (the one's from the EU have a legal right to come into this country) forms queues like this. NONE

You do realise the word immigrant and refugee are two separate things. A refugee is by definition an immigrant. However an immigrant isn't necessarily a refugee. Look at the picture, they are clearly not white european, the photograph used was of migrants crossing the Croatia-Slovenia border in 2015. It was chosen for a reason, and if they wanted a queue of people to show that Britain is full... why not use a photograph from Britain, of a packed classroom, or waiting room? Because they wouldn't have had the desired impact, which is clearly, brown people are coming! Be afraid!
 

derf

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 4, 2014
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Who made any threat of violence? You are imagining things again, just like you imagine racism every time someone says something which you don't agree with.

Are you using hallucinogenic drugs, because there seems to be a lot of things taking place inside your nut that don't correlate in any way with reality.
You're giving us a glimpse of a right wing mentality. You're also illustrating the point I made earlier - that right wing types don't want to be heard, but to oppress. Thanks for that.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
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WE ARE NOT AT BREAKING POINT BECAUSE OF IMMIGRATION, if you even think we are at breaking point (which I don't think we are) its because of a lack of investment in the services you've talked about. An influx of people who pay taxes and input into the economy is a benefit to the system not a drain on it.

What kind of economic migrant (the one's from the EU have a legal right to come into this country) forms queues like this. NONE

You do realise the word immigrant and refugee are two separate things. A refugee is by definition an immigrant. However an immigrant isn't necessarily a refugee. Look at the picture, they are clearly not white european, the photograph used was of migrants crossing the Croatia-Slovenia border in 2015. It was chosen for a reason, and if they wanted a queue of people to show that Britain is full... why not use a photograph from Britain, of a packed classroom, or waiting room? Because they wouldn't have had the desired impact, which is clearly, brown people are coming! Be afraid!
Nice Caps-Locking.

However, it does not alter anything. We have differing opinions and that fact remains.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Like you, I don't know if the people depicted are asylum seekers refugees or economic migrants. What was it that made you assume that the people in the picture where refugees? Was it because the word refugee is more emotive than the word immigrant? Were you deliberately trying to blur the line in the hope that you could claim that Farage wants to turn his back on those in genuine need? Was that it?

My interpretation is that the picture was used to illustrate the fact that there are currently large numbers of people on the move from one country to another. When people move in the numbers that we are currently seeing, it does not allow the countries who receive them to grow their population naturally through a steady increase in birthrate. This inevitably puts an un-natural and on un-planned pressure on services and infrastructure. I think we are seeing this pressure in doctors waiting rooms, school classroom sizes, and social service type activities being unable to cope with a rapidly rising work load. This I would call a route to breaking point unless some form of population control is implemented.

We cannot take in every single person that wants to come to this country. The fairest way to put in place controls to allow people to move here based on merit. That may be skills based, genuine asylum or other specified factor. In a nutshell, what I am saying is that controls need to be put in place and the current chaotic system ended.

I don't know if leaving the EU will achieve this, but as things stand today continued membership doesn't seem to offer much hope. I can't see the logic in continuing along a path that has failed to deliver. Whenever I meet a problem in life, I try something else. If that doesn't work I'll try a different approach and I think that is what the EU referendum offers, a chance to try something else.

Immigration is a big concern to a karge section of the population, many of who are recent immigrants into the UK. I know that a similar number of people share the opposite view, but that does not mean that it is racist or wrong to hold these concerns.

David Cameron, rightly or wrongly, pledged to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands. That was popular. Hiwever, he has failed in the most spectacular and high profile of ways. People see this and believe that he has failed because of the EU.

In simple numbers terms, we are trying to put 6 Litres into a 5 Litre can. It doesn't fit. People will tell us that other countries have taken more immigrants and refugees per head of population than the UK, but countries like Germany and France have a 10 Litre cans and bigger, but I suspect they are still experiencing similar strains on their services and infrastructure to us.
In answer to your question
"Were you deliberately trying to blur the line in the hope that you could claim that Farage wants to turn his back on those in genuine need? Was that it?"

34197707http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34197707
Stop the boats he cries, mostly economic migrants and isis terrorists then we can assess who comes (but forgets that there is no real mechanism to do so) and really does he care? it's no problem if you stop the boats coming is it?
It really doesn't sound as if he gives a damn about them simply wants to cherry pick as in this missive
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/609161/Ukip-Nigel-Farage-David-Cameron-Christian-refugees-Britain-migrants-referendum-EU
Christians are welcome according to him, and being discouraged by Cameron.... tell me what does that imply?
Paint a cross on the side of the boat and get a free pass?
He won't turn his back on those in need, but Christians are at the front of the Queue?
And by the way it's best to come by Air, train or Bus?
 
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Vasilis_Pap

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Aug 6, 2015
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like i say, im all for proprotional represenattion - i.e. im not saying one shoudl do away with it - but i dont think it will fix teh problem. i dont think the agenda of teh militant right wing is, IMHO, to be heard - i think it is often to oppress. in countries with complete proprotional represnetation (such as greece) there is simialr problems with a militant right wing. I'm not sure that there is a parliamentary solution. perhaps, to pour soome oil on this water, being where we are, in teh UK, with a (sometimes) aggressively challenginig free press despite the very flawed first past the post system, and increasingly informed public shortly before a very important referendum isnt so bad. i have a russian colleague - whom i disagree with - but who would argue, vehemently, for a socialist system in which complete equality of each indiivdual is (theoretically at least)not a right, but a decree.
Who said Greece gas complete proportional representation? It hasn't. It has an endorsed representation for the first party in order to try and form governments easier and more stable. It's completely unrepresentative and it's about to change from next elections and being discussed atm.
Golden dawn and every other fat right or far left party is generated by the increased frustration of the population, poor intelligence and level of education, and the belief that if you put people that live and believe in violence more things will happen faster. This is how gullible people are. Like the Greeks that voted for the current goverment
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Todays bit of Brexit propaganda from that wonderful source, the Daily Express
"
EU lightbulb SHOCK: Households will be forced having to pay £275 on replacements by 2018
BRITISH households will be forced to spend hundreds of pounds on replacement lightbulbs over the next two years if the UK votes to stay in the European Union.
By LANA CLEMENTS
A new EU law will ban the sale of many halogen lightbulbs and homes will have to be fitted with energy saving LED bulbs instead, which cost around 25 times more.

Homes in Britain have an average of 11 spotlight bulbs, which means it would cost up to £275 in replacement costs, according to the Association for the Conservation of Energy.

This latest piece of bureaucracy is set to take effect in 2018.

The reality?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_incandescent_light_bulbs
All member states and just about every other country in the world have agreed to phase them out
They get sillier don't they?
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
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In answer to your question
"Were you deliberately trying to blur the line in the hope that you could claim that Farage wants to turn his back on those in genuine need? Was that it?"

34197707http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34197707
Stop the boats he cries, mostly economic migrants and isis terrorists then we can assess who comes (but forgets that there is no real mechanism to do so) and really does he care? it's no problem if you stop the boats coming is it?
It really doesn't sound as if he gives a damn about them simply wants to cherry pick as in this missive
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/609161/Ukip-Nigel-Farage-David-Cameron-Christian-refugees-Britain-migrants-referendum-EU
Christians are welcome according to him, and being discouraged by Cameron.... tell me what does that imply?
Paint a cross on the side of the boat and get a free pass?
He won't turn his back on those in need, but Christians are at the front of the Queue?
And by the way it's best to come by Air, train or Bus?
You are only quoting a distorted news paper opinion. Opinion which you so eagerly criticise when It doesn't read as you would like it to.

Anyway, I can't see what's wrong with the Express article. Why would anyone object to a man trying to stop people from drowning in the sea? Quite nobel.
 
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oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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You are only quoting a distorted news paper opinion. Opinion which you so eagerly criticise when It doesn't read as you would like it to.
No Tilson I am not, the first link link it to a video at the EU Parliament where he says "Send the boats back" which could well result in the deaths of the people on board from whatever they are fleeing from.
Based on his judgement only, and are you defending that?
And the second link is to a newspaper that agrees with him and is quoting his own words! and of all newpapers the Daily Express at that!
Probably the least reliable paper on the planet.
Come on Tilson, you really have to face up to it, the man is no hero, he condemns himself without needing my, or anyone else's help.
Why are you doing the very thing you decry?
". Opinion which you so eagerly criticise when It doesn't read as you would like it to"
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
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immigration may be the biggest issue for Brexiters but not the majority in the most recent poll, behind the economy, the NHS and personal income.





current bookies' probability:
remain: 69%
leave: 31%
 
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anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,845
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The European Union
immigration may be the biggest issue for Brexiters but not the majority in the most recent poll, behind the economy, the NHS and personal income.
<comic relief alert>
How very English! There you all are thinking "What's best for personal income first! Oh dear! We can't say that!" and so you put future generations, "the economy" and the NHS first. Hipocrites :p
</comic relief>

Just for information, coming from NZ the NHS was already sucking badly in 1976, year in which the weather went from balmy to usual and when I learnt don't get the flu in the UK, you can die (I have lung complications so for me the flu = very dangerous disease like back in 1918) while waiting on an appointment with a doctor...
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
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I much prefer to listen to a debate between quiter speakers like Gisela Stuart, Michael Gove on one side and Corbyn and Kenneth Clarke on the other. The rest are just loud mouths.
 

tillson

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May 29, 2008
5,252
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Lord Guthrie, ex defence chief, switches to the leave campaign.

The newspapers seem to be reporting a slight lead for remain today. It's going to be close!

Has anyone noticed how the vote leave poster is very similar to the vote labour posters used in the last general election? Even the little vote leave emblem in the bottom right hand corner of the poster looks like the labour Rose at first glance from a distance. Does anyone think this was done intentionally or is it just a very unfortunate coincidence?
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,216
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The newspapers seem to be reporting a slight lead for remain today. It's going to be close!
I expected this to happen, a reaction to the assasination of a Remain MP. The undecideds are easily swung.

Has anyone noticed how the vote leave poster is very similar to the vote labour posters used in the last general election? Even the little vote leave emblem in the bottom right hand corner of the poster looks like the labour Rose at first glance from a distance. Does anyone think this was done intentionally or is it just a very unfortunate coincidence?
I saw this the moment it appeared, and was immediately sure it was a deliberate copy.

Likewise the queue of immigrants poster, a deliberate copy of the Conservative "Labour isn't working" unemployed queue poster of long ago.
.
 

BrendanJ

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 6, 2016
339
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Cheshire
Lord Guthrie, ex defence chief, switches to the leave campaign.

The newspapers seem to be reporting a slight lead for remain today. It's going to be close!
Not surprising given the event of last week
I wonder what events we will get this week, it can easily be pushed either way
 
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tillson

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May 29, 2008
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Not surprising given the event of last week
I wonder what events we will get this week, it can easily be pushed either way
I expect a big push from remain to implant the notion into people's minds that a vote to leave is somehow a vote in support of Jo Cox's killer.

It is almost inevitable that in the coming days it will be "uncovered" that as a 6 year old, the killer walked to and from infant school with another child. That child has now grown into a man who wishes to leave the EU!!!! Or something else equally tenuous.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,216
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I expect a big push from remain to implant the notion into people's minds that a vote to leave is somehow a vote in support of Jo Cox's killer.
I hope there's sufficient remnants of decency left to prevent that happening.

And of course it could easily backlash anyway.
.
 
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trex

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May 15, 2011
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I don't think people who don't like the EU are going to change their vote.
most people realized by now that the far right rhetorics of newspapers like the Express and the Mail have consequences and have to stop. The undecided voters are right to lean toward remain.
 
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