Brexit, for once some facts.

[oyster]

As I said to OG, it’s not good to have referendums like this every 5 or 6 years. If we did that we’d have had 8 or so EU membership referendums. A degree of common sense has to be applied.

I think another referendum in 2045 would be about the right time.

Common sense says that people should have a say in the status of their country. If we wait until 2045, something like one third of the population will not have been able to express their opinion in any official way - other than by their votes in elections. And we can all see that when votes are by party it muddies the waters and has a strong tendency to conflate issues.

Possibly, if independence had been rejected by a large majority, 66% or 75% perhaps, then it would argue against another referendum in the near future. But it wasn't. It was fairly close. A few years might well swing it substantially (and, for the sake of this discussion, it could swing either way).

Let us imagine that the people of Scotland change at a rate of just 1% a year, from 2014 to 2050, the anger of having 66.7%, two thirds, in favour in 2036 and that being ignored could be extremely nasty. And wrong. Very wrong to say, wait another nine years before you are even allowed to open your mouths and say that is what you want.

I suspect that building up pressure in Scotland would also affect the view in Wales and NI.

2014​	44.7​
2015​	45.7​
2016​	46.7​
2017​	47.7​
2018​	48.7​
2019​	49.7​
2020​	50.7​
2021​	51.7​
2022​	52.7​
2023​	53.7​
2024​	54.7​
2025​	55.7​
2026​	56.7​
2027​	57.7​
2028​	58.7​
2029​	59.7​
2030​	60.7​
2031​	61.7​
2032​	62.7​
2033​	63.7​
2034​	64.7​
2035​	65.7​
2036​	66.7​
2037​	67.7​
2038​	68.7​
2039​	69.7​
2040​	70.7​
2041​	71.7​
2042​	72.7​
2043​	73.7​
2044​	74.7​
2045​	75.7​
2046​	76.7​
2047​	77.7​
2048​	78.7​
2049​	79.7​
2050​	80.7​

 

[oldgroaner]

Not a good start Boris
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-boris-johnson-small-businesses-leave-uk-eu-market-a9310356.html

Brexit: Boris Johnson accused of failing to protect small businesses as one third say they are ready to leave UK

Survey reveals widespread gloom about prospects for smaller firms – with 60 per cent dissatisfied with government’s approach

 

[oldgroaner]

As I said to OG, it’s not good to have referendums like this every 5 or 6 years. If we did that we’d have had 8 or so EU membership referendums. A degree of common sense has to be applied.

I think another referendum in 2045 would be about the right time.

Do you indeed, and on what authority, Scotland should be able to make these decisions for itself if it is an equal partner in the union, yet England wants to determine when it has the choice, sorry that doesn’t work for me,Nor I suspect for a lot of other Scots

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

Common sense says that people should have a say in the status of their country. If we wait until 2045, something like one third of the population will not have been able to express their opinion in any official way - other than by their votes in elections. And we can all see that when votes are by party it muddies the waters and has a strong tendency to conflate issues.

Possibly, if independence had been rejected by a large majority, 66% or 75% perhaps, then it would argue against another referendum in the near future. But it wasn't. It was fairly close. A few years might well swing it substantially (and, for the sake of this discussion, it could swing either way).

Let us imagine that the people of Scotland change at a rate of just 1% a year, from 2014 to 2050, the anger of having 66.7%, two thirds, in favour in 2036 and that being ignored could be extremely nasty. And wrong. Very wrong to say, wait another nine years before you are even allowed to open your mouths and say that is what you want.

I suspect that building up pressure in Scotland would also affect the view in Wales and NI.

2014​	44.7​
2015​	45.7​
2016​	46.7​
2017​	47.7​
2018​	48.7​
2019​	49.7​
2020​	50.7​
2021​	51.7​
2022​	52.7​
2023​	53.7​
2024​	54.7​
2025​	55.7​
2026​	56.7​
2027​	57.7​
2028​	58.7​
2029​	59.7​
2030​	60.7​
2031​	61.7​
2032​	62.7​
2033​	63.7​
2034​	64.7​
2035​	65.7​
2036​	66.7​
2037​	67.7​
2038​	68.7​
2039​	69.7​
2040​	70.7​
2041​	71.7​
2042​	72.7​
2043​	73.7​
2044​	74.7​
2045​	75.7​
2046​	76.7​
2047​	77.7​
2048​	78.7​
2049​	79.7​
2050​	80.7​

It could just as easily go the other way. It would be in, out, in, out........ Give until 2045, that’s tough but fair.

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

Do you indeed, and on what authority, Scotland should be able to make these decisions for itself if it is an equal partner in the union, yet England wants to determine when it has the choice, sorry that doesn’t work for me,Nor I suspect for a lot of other Scots

That’s precisely it, the word Partner. When a partner commits to a partnership, as Scotland did, they need to honour that commitment for a reasonable and workable period of time, 2045 for instance. Successful business partnerships don’t review the partnership every time they embark on a new contract.

 

[oyster]

It could just as easily go the other way. It would be in, out, in, out........ Give until 2045, that’s tough but fair.

Which was why I wrote:
it could swing either way

Let us have a referendum on whether it is fair? Why do you think your opinion on it being fair is any more justified or right than someone else's opinion that it isn't right or fair?

Let us imagine NI left before 2045. The argument to defer Scottish independence falls even further away.

Let us imagine Welsh indepence surges. The bizarre situation could be that, because they have not already had one, Wales gets a referendum while Scotland is being told to wait for years.

Stuff tough. That isn't the issue.

 

[oyster]

That’s precisely it, the word Partner. When a partner commits to a partnership, as Scotland did, they need to honour that commitment for a reasonable and workable period of time, 2045 for instance. Successful business partnerships don’t review the partnership every time they embark on a new contract.

Ban divorce? Or just force people to wait until they have retired?

 

[wheeler]

That’s precisely it, the word Partner. When a partner commits to a partnership, as Scotland did, they need to honour that commitment for a reasonable and workable period of time, 2045 for instance. Successful business partnerships don’t review the partnership every time they embark on a new contract.

312 years is quite some commitment.

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

312 years is quite some commitment.

6 years. 2014.

 

[wheeler]

Give until 2045, that’s tough but fair.

The Scottish Parliament voted in favour of the ability to have another referendum just last week.

The Smith Commission report stated "nothing in this report prevents Scotland becoming an independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose".

The UK government will not be able to hold this off until 2045. A few years of Boris' Brexit will see to that.

 

[wheeler]

6 years. 2014.

What commitment was given in 2014?

The question was "Should Scotland be an independent country?"
The answer was "No" and no further commitment was given.

The 1707 Act of Union did place commitments on both parties.

 

[oldgroaner]

It could just as easily go the other way. It would be in, out, in, out........ Give until 2045, that’s tough but fair.

Fair only if Scotland sets the rules not England, you are really not understanding that there is a separate nation involved are you? to you Scotland is just a county.

 

[oldgroaner]

The Scottish Parliament voted in favour of the ability to have another referendum just last week.

The Smith Commission report stated "nothing in this report prevents Scotland becoming an independent country in the future should the people of Scotland so choose".

The UK government will not be able to hold this off until 2045. A few years of Boris' Brexit will see to that.

What can Westminster do about it? impose Martial Law?

 

[oldgroaner]

312 years is quite some commitment.

That’s precisely it, the word Partner. When a partner commits to a partnership, as Scotland did, they need to honour that commitment for a reasonable and workable period of time, 2045 for instance. Successful business partnerships don’t review the partnership every time they embark on a new contract.

They do if one of the partners reneges on a fundamental company change of direction as has been done here with Brexit.

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

It’s pointless arguing. First Minister Nicola Sturgeon won’t be getting another referendum. Not whilst BoJo is in office, and judging by Labour’s performance, that’s going to be for a while. That’s one of the few things upon which I agree with him.

 

[oldgroaner]

Any hope that the season of lying was over when we finally left the EU, now it will actually be turned up several notches

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223931488355471362

 

[oldgroaner]

It’s pointless arguing. First Minister Nicola Sturgeon won’t be getting another referendum. Not whilst BoJo is in office, and judging by Labour’s performance, that’s going to be for a while. That’s one of the few things upon which I agree with him.

Unless of course she simply decided to have one.

 

[flecc]

You might do better with a more slang-oriented source, such as: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=MSM

I did use Google but picked up Wikipedia from there, and it wasn't important enough to research for more. Acronyms have too many meanings, I remember my flecc having over 20 meanings.
.

 

[flecc]

Scotland voted to be part of the United Kingdom.

Before the referendum.

The United Kingdom voted to leave the EU.

After the referendum.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

I was watching Raab on Sky saying that Barnier is wrong over customs checks, he is under the illusion that we have a deal already agreed.
I wonder why no one is pointing out in the media that no such deal exists?
For a little while i wondered if the Government would be wise enough to avoid public posturing over the attempts to get a sensible FTA
Unfortunately Boris or rather Cummings is too stupid to employ wisdom, it's a case of having to prove how macho they are and how weak and spiteful the EU are behaving for the benefit of the Leave voters.

Not a good start Boris, it will lead to embarrassing reverses of policy in short order and damage to the credibility of the government with industry and any country we want to negotiate an FTA with.

Here by the way is chapter and verse from the withdrawal agreement