Brexit, for once some facts.

OxygenJames

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Jan 8, 2012
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Thats where we differ. I think you are an idealist [Flecc]
Right.

Labour right now doesn't care about winning - only about staying true to some 1970s student politics idealism of what socialism is all about - based on ideas from the 19th century.

Will they acknowledge this though? No way!

They will keep doing the same thing - over and over and over again - getting the same result (losing general elections).

If it wasn't so tragic it might be funny.
 

OxygenJames

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 8, 2012
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What a joke, it's simply a matter of waiting till the Brexit bombs and it hurts their wallets, they'll react in ways you won't like.
They have acted like idiots, and since they have proved to be proof against reasoning after their first mistake, what is the point of trying to protect their feelings from being told the truth?
It won't make any difference, they will find out soon enough, and be very angry they were duped twice.
Says another loser.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Somebody is getting the idea.
Too many holes in your plans and too many plotters who will soon fall out, don't expect this Government to last more than a couple of years.
As you said "If it wasn't so tragic it might be funny. "
 

OxygenJames

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Jan 8, 2012
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Conservative rule? what conservative rule? this lot are a rabble, led by Lobby groups masquerading as institutes that will soon fight like cats among themselves to carve up the loot.
You'd think such a bunch of idiots would be easy to beat in a general election wouldn't you?
 
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Woosh

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Yes anybody who sells stuff to the NHS will be happy. That's how it works. They (the NHS) needs stuff so they go shopping to buy stuff. The more people offering them stuff the better deal they can get. That's called market capitalism.

The alternative is only one place offering them stuff.

At a fixed price.

We all know how that tends to turn out.
the US want us to reduce the role of NICE so that their pharma reps can induce our doctors to prescribe their drugs.
That's the reason why they are not interested in buying our NHS.
 
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oldgroaner

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It's amazing how Boris was peddled a second-hand deal that May rejected, and he didn't understand it and daren't let parliament scrutinise it, so much so that he's had to lie about the effects it will have, and the conservatives think that everything in the garden is rosy.
And they're dumb enough to gloat over having dropped themselves in the crap, and negotiating the sort of brexit they didn't really want to satisfy some temporary voters but they can't afford to annoy.
imagine the annoyance within the party when they're not getting their precious brexit of the kind they wanted.
And if talks fail and we go to a no-deal brexit the new voters will be up in arms atnot getting what they've been promised.
What a way to start when you're trying to set up something akin to the third Reich
Quite hilarious really
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Look at it this way; now there is an opportunity for the Experiment of "going it alone" to prove itself or fail.
The only part that worries me is that I am unlikely to live long enough to see the outcome.
Nevertheless i do not doubt that the long term future is for Europe to become a superstate of which we are an important part.
What this election has proved is simply that the powers of persuasion that can be brought to bear on the population are, for many, too seductive to resist.
For those taken in I have little sympathy, for those who are not it's sad, but nothing lasts forever.
What does make me concerned is the likelihood of public disappointment resulting in civil unrest, and this election result has actually made that much more likely , as those who deserted labour have no real loyalty to the Conservatives and if they don't see the improvements promised a second time, they are unlikely to wait patiently for another Election to come along, especially as they have been duped twice by the same people.
And they are already disappointed with our version of representational democracy.
For how can it be representational, when 54% voted for remain parties and yet have no one fighting their corner?
All the ingredients are there for very rocky times ahead.
Brexit will move past the celebrations stage into something else entirely, there will be no healing of the divisions unless Boris makes a really excellent job of running a society people are expecting.
Anyone care to quote the odds on that after his previous job performances and the character of the man?
I cant agree with this post because I do think UK will floursish outside EU, but I understand your sentiments and think its your best ever post.
I also see that my beliefs (ie UK flourishing out side EU) are actually in the minority, so we must ask ourselves why are we leaving when the majority of people disagree. I see that totally as a fault of Labour/Corbyn.

Corbyn should have opposed Tories and campaigned on Remain (as Campbell was asking from beginning, its why he voted lib dem) Because they didnt they lost both remain and leave voters, Boris believes in the referendum even though enough have now changed opinion for decision to be reversed, however, as much as Labour offered ref2, it meant another referendum, more delay and confusion. Country wanted decisiveness, not ref 2.In effect remainers had no real alternative, and nobody representing them. (apart from Swinson who for various reasons was never going to get power)
End result, Tories massive majority. Remainers now thinking it endorses their vote, when in reality it does no such thing.
You are correct OG, if things go wrong drastically, there will be problems because the solutions have simply not been offered in last 2 GEs.
I said months ago, much as I voted Brexit, still believe it could be a success, I do not believe that is the majority view. So how can it be democratic to leave? Hence, given choice now I would vote remain.
For what this rambling is worth.
The question that doesnt seem to being asked is, taking into account the mass of support demonstrated for remaining why did labour not campaign on it. Yes, flecc has offered an explanation but it seems rather a coincidence that Labour have just had worst result since 1935 and they did not offer remain??? Just think of support a Labour leader would have got had he/she said.
"Look, we, ve made a mistake, we dont think people actually want to leave, we will revoke art50 and forget Brexit". Could it really have been worse. The bloke responsible for Blair's landslide victory thought not.
But in interests of Idealism he was expelled. Labour just paid for their high ideals, well actually the working class will be paying for Labours high ideals. Campbell wasnt real labour was he? He is Blair Torylite.?
(Changed my mind, agreed with post)
 
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oldgroaner

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Says another loser.
You misunderstand. this has simply turned out as one of my preferred alternatives previously expressed and here they are again
  1. Brexit Cancelled
  2. A no deal Brexit with Labour out of power, so the lesson is fast and it hurts
  3. A May style Brexit (which this is) with Labour out of power, which takes longer to hurt
And it looks like either choice 2 or 3 will take place. In the long term they result in us applying to rejoin the EU.
That makes your win temporary, nothing more.
And great spectator sport to watch
 
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50Hertz

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Jan 2, 2019
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It would never have been acceptable to have a Prime Minister with that many spacers under his bars, or to be using a stem such as this.

This is not right wing Tory controlled newspaper reporting, this is fact backed up with photographic evidence. He has to go. He will never be right for this country.
 

oyster

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Nov 7, 2017
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It is not within his, or even the government's, gift:

Michael Gove has categorically promised the UK will have a trade deal with the EU by the end of next year, despite deep reservations in Brussels about whether this is possible.

Totally dependent on agreement with another party (or many parties, depending how you look at it). Hence, yet another promise which should not have been made. If the governement fails to deliver, they will blame others but they should be castigated for even making the claim when they cannot be sure of delivery.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Great news for us all today. We are saved, Swinson is staying in politics. And
Libdems should now be a real force to be reckoned with, their new leader is highly experienced,a full 4 days as an mp.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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It is not within his, or even the government's, gift:

Michael Gove has categorically promised the UK will have a trade deal with the EU by the end of next year, despite deep reservations in Brussels about whether this is possible.

Totally dependent on agreement with another party (or many parties, depending how you look at it). Hence, yet another promise which should not have been made. If the governement fails to deliver, they will blame others but they should be castigated for even making the claim when they cannot be sure of delivery.
Yep, we, ll all moan in unison. That will frighten them. They can say or do anything for at least 5 years.
They could bring back Conscription, Capital punishment and the Birch. We could protest and riot but not much else.
You could always write to your Labour mp to bring it up for you. Probably on a beach somewhere for a while tho.
 
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Old news but the writing was on the wall for Labour.

The salient point, written in May.
Screenshot_20191216_090246.jpg
 
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oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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I wonder why the Telegraph bother with headlines like this?
"
Emily Thornberry accused by Caroline Flint of calling northern voters 'stupid'

Doesn't matter anymore, does it? but I suppose they are trying to keep the pressure on for when the news turns bad and the new converts wonder whatever possessed them to vote the way they did.
 

50Hertz

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Jan 2, 2019
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Great news for us all today. We are saved, Swinson is staying in politics. And
Libdems should now be a real force to be reckoned with, their new leader is highly experienced,a full 4 days as an mp.
Great news to counter the sad news that Lilly Allen is quitting Twitter in protest at Boris Johnson’s victory. How will we manage without her?
 
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50Hertz

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 2, 2019
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You misunderstand. this has simply turned out as one of my preferred alternatives previously expressed and here they are again
  1. Brexit Cancelled
  2. A no deal Brexit with Labour out of power, so the lesson is fast and it hurts
  3. A May style Brexit (which this is) with Labour out of power, which takes longer to hurt
And it looks like either choice 2 or 3 will take place. In the long term they result in us applying to rejoin the EU.
That makes your win temporary, nothing more.
And great spectator sport to watch
Or 4). Labour are going to choose their next leader based upon some sort of bizarre idealistic quota. They will turn out to be a bigger waste of vital organs than Jo Swindon and keep them out of power for a decade, or longer.

My bet will be on 4)
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Old news but the writing was on the wall for Labour.

The salient point, written in May.
View attachment 33391
I know this is a sensitive point with you, but really all this is History now, and as this election proves
The one thing we learn as a lesson from history
Is that the electorate never learn from the lesson of History.

However the question now is this
Will they learn from the lesson of a bad experience?
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Or 4). Labour are going to choose their next leader based upon some sort of bizarre idealistic quota. They will turn out to be a bigger waste of vital organs than Jo Swindon and keep them out of power for a decade, or longer.

My bet will be on 4)
It really doesn't matter, forget about Labour.
 

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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It really doesn't matter, forget about Labour.
But our democracy needs a credible electable opposition to function.
A one party democracy is an anochronism.
Its like Ford selling model Ts. Available in every colour, as long as its black.
Thats why I, ve had my pants in a twist about Labour for past months.
 
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