Brexit, for once some facts.

Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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good read:
Alistair Campbell on why Labour lost so many MPs in this election.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/alastair-campbell-on-labour-failure-at-general-election-1-6425405

QUOTE:

...

I [Campbell] detected some warmth and pockets of massive enthusiasm for Corbyn - but in key battlegrounds these were dwarfed by the doubts of so many people that he had what it took to be prime minister.

These were not people likely to turn out at rallies and chant his name, or the name of any other politician. They were neither ideological right nor ideological left. Many of them, dare I say it given the Corbynistas helped turn the name of Labour's most successful leader into a swear word, voted for New Labour and, even if they didn't, saw Tony Blair as a strong leader and a capable prime minister in a way they struggled to see Corbyn.

That truth - which has been evident for some time and was merely briefly camouflaged by Labour's better than expected result in 2017 - lay at the heart of Johnson's determination to get his winter election the moment he took over from May. Why on earth the Liberal Democrats and the SNP chose to fall into his trap, thus ramping the pressure on Corbyn to do likewise, is beyond me. To do so as the support for a People's Vote in the last parliament was growing not receding was equally baffling.

The commentators will now queue to say what a great campaigner Johnson is, how the simplicity of 'Take Back Control' was matched by the simplicity of 'Get Brexit Done', and the message delivered with such consistency that it won the day. But a message only connects if it is rooted in reality, and if your opponents let you get away with it. You need both of those things to win with it.

That it is not rooted in reality will become apparent quickly enough. With his majority, Johnson can get Brexit done to the extent that he can pass his withdrawal agreement. But then the really tricky stuff starts, as we seek to negotiate the detailed exit with the EU, and trade deals with others such as the US, at a time when our negotiation leverage on both fronts is weaker than ever. However, it was the letting him get away with it by his opponents that helped him deliver that message, ramped of course by the Brexit Lie Machine newspapers, a handicap to Corbyn that I do not minimise, not least for the influence they have in the framing of the campaign by the broadcasters. But precisely because Johnson wanted to talk about Brexit at every turn, Labour wanted to avoid the subject.

There were two parts to the Johnson message - get Brexit done and then focus on the things that really matter to people. Only by demolishing the first were Labour likely to get the hearing they needed on the second. Labour appeared to view Brexit as a tactical inconvenience, rather than the defining issue of our time. How else to explain the near- invisibility of Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry, shadow Brexit secretary and shadow foreign secretary respectively?

The answer, of course, may be that Labour knew that truth about Corbyn, and in some ways were less focused on doing what was needed to win the general election than on what would follow in the wake of defeat, so perhaps wanted to keep possible leadership rivals out of the picture, and instead promote true believers Rebecca Long-Bailey, Richard Burgon, Laura Pidcock, the chosen few. It did not help win over those who needed to be won.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
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80
In the Telegraph
Boris Johnson plans radical overhaul of civil service to guarantee 'people's Brexit'
Boris Johnson is plotting a dramatic overhaul of Whitehall after his landslide election victory, in a drive to demonstrate that the Government “works for the people”.

Dominic Cummings, Mr Johnson’s chief aide, is to spearhead plans for radical reforms to the civil service, including a review of the processes for hiring and firing officials, to ensure Whitehall delivers the Prime Minister’s agenda.

Fascinating, we now have an unelected man effectively interfering with the Civil Service? and trying to implement extraordinary and very probably dangerous changes to make it work in his own personal interests?

What a joke the headline should read
Cummings plans radical overhaul of civil service to guarantee 'his version "of Brexit
All Boris is allowed to do is say Yes Sir


The seeds of destruction are taking root in what once was the Conservative Party, and there's nothing to stop them.
 
Last edited:

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
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80
good read:
Alistair Campbell on why Labour lost so many MPs in this election.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/alastair-campbell-on-labour-failure-at-general-election-1-6425405

QUOTE:

...

I [Campbell] detected some warmth and pockets of massive enthusiasm for Corbyn - but in key battlegrounds these were dwarfed by the doubts of so many people that he had what it took to be prime minister.

These were not people likely to turn out at rallies and chant his name, or the name of any other politician. They were neither ideological right nor ideological left. Many of them, dare I say it given the Corbynistas helped turn the name of Labour's most successful leader into a swear word, voted for New Labour and, even if they didn't, saw Tony Blair as a strong leader and a capable prime minister in a way they struggled to see Corbyn.

That truth - which has been evident for some time and was merely briefly camouflaged by Labour's better than expected result in 2017 - lay at the heart of Johnson's determination to get his winter election the moment he took over from May. Why on earth the Liberal Democrats and the SNP chose to fall into his trap, thus ramping the pressure on Corbyn to do likewise, is beyond me. To do so as the support for a People's Vote in the last parliament was growing not receding was equally baffling.

The commentators will now queue to say what a great campaigner Johnson is, how the simplicity of 'Take Back Control' was matched by the simplicity of 'Get Brexit Done', and the message delivered with such consistency that it won the day. But a message only connects if it is rooted in reality, and if your opponents let you get away with it. You need both of those things to win with it.

That it is not rooted in reality will become apparent quickly enough. With his majority, Johnson can get Brexit done to the extent that he can pass his withdrawal agreement. But then the really tricky stuff starts, as we seek to negotiate the detailed exit with the EU, and trade deals with others such as the US, at a time when our negotiation leverage on both fronts is weaker than ever. However, it was the letting him get away with it by his opponents that helped him deliver that message, ramped of course by the Brexit Lie Machine newspapers, a handicap to Corbyn that I do not minimise, not least for the influence they have in the framing of the campaign by the broadcasters. But precisely because Johnson wanted to talk about Brexit at every turn, Labour wanted to avoid the subject.

There were two parts to the Johnson message - get Brexit done and then focus on the things that really matter to people. Only by demolishing the first were Labour likely to get the hearing they needed on the second. Labour appeared to view Brexit as a tactical inconvenience, rather than the defining issue of our time. How else to explain the near- invisibility of Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry, shadow Brexit secretary and shadow foreign secretary respectively?

The answer, of course, may be that Labour knew that truth about Corbyn, and in some ways were less focused on doing what was needed to win the general election than on what would follow in the wake of defeat, so perhaps wanted to keep possible leadership rivals out of the picture, and instead promote true believers Rebecca Long-Bailey, Richard Burgon, Laura Pidcock, the chosen few. It did not help win over those who needed to be won.
After parliament voted to continue the Brexit process, then the remain cause was already lost, as as you will recall, my feelings that Labour should not seek power only to end up trying to do the impossible and make Brexit in any shape of form work out for the general good.
So the absolute failure in the election is the best possible outcome.

Brexit is entirely the property of the Conservative Party.
A splendid result, for if ever there was a poisoned chalice, this is it.
Even better, imagine the reaction among their new found supporters when the proverbial hits the fan!
 

Woosh

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in a way, BJ's 80 majority is better than anything less.
As you said, the tories own it (brexit) 100%.
I am for a soft brexit so although I am disappointed with the result, it's not 100% loss for me.
What I feel sorry about is the longer the tories hold on to power, the more they are encouraged to veer politics to the right.
 
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Zlatan

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Part of Labour's problem has been not to endorse and utilise Campbell. He is a pariah to the left, and it has been to their cost. Love him or hate him he knows his stuff and is on a personal level a genuine and sincere bloke. He has had his issues and had Corbyn had sense to utilise Campbell he could have engineered a way better result for Labour.
He has been speaking sense for months over current situation.
As for OG's feeling that allowing Tories into power to sink themselves on the rocks of Brexit is I, m afraid a pipe dream. Firstly, they wont hit the rocks. They will by hook and crook navigate around them. Secondly Labour are as we speak taking to the life boats having smashed into a great big iceberg. They are dead.
Assume everything goes wrong with Brexit, NHS, etc etc. What do Labour,SDP etc etc do. Shout a lot in commons. Tories reply... We followed our mandate from the people..
We have Tories for another 10 years and probably with BJ as leader.
We have allowed our Labour party to be fashioned in the image it currently portrays by such as Lilly Allen, Bob Geldoff, Billy Bragg, Len McCluskey, Corbyn, Abott, McDonnel, Momentum and Unite. They are the ones responsible, they have by their lack of reality emboldened and empowered the Right to complete and utter dominance.
We needed Blair, New Labour, Campbell along along side Corbyn/Unite/McCluskey. We could only have one or other. The Labour party fractured itself to the cost of us all. Just at the wrong time.
Blaming Brexit, Media, or anything else will never fix the problem.
 
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OxygenJames

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Jan 8, 2012
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In the Telegraph
Boris Johnson plans radical overhaul of civil service to guarantee 'people's Brexit'
Boris Johnson is plotting a dramatic overhaul of Whitehall after his landslide election victory, in a drive to demonstrate that the Government “works for the people”.

Dominic Cummings, Mr Johnson’s chief aide, is to spearhead plans for radical reforms to the civil service, including a review of the processes for hiring and firing officials, to ensure Whitehall delivers the Prime Minister’s agenda.

Fascinating, we now have an unelected man effectively interfering with the Civil Service? and trying to implement extraordinary and very probably dangerous changes to make it work in his own personal interests?

What a joke the headline should read
Cummings plans radical overhaul of civil service to guarantee 'his version "of Brexit
All Boris is allowed to do is say Yes Sir


The seeds of destruction are taking root in what once was the Conservative Party, and there's nothing to stop them.
I've worked with aspects of the civil service all my life - if there is an area of this country that needs a RADICAL overhaul let me assure you it is them.

Cummings sounds like the perfect guy to do this.
 
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OxygenJames

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Jan 8, 2012
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in a way, BJ's 80 majority is better than anything less.
As you said, the tories own it (brexit) 100%.
I am for a soft brexit so although I am disappointed with the result, it's not 100% loss for me.
What I feel sorry about is the longer the tories hold on to power, the more they are encouraged to veer politics to the right.
Wrong. Boris is a natural liberal - he's a comic for christs sake - he will lean left - move the Tory's back to the centre on all the main issues. He intends to reclaim the centre from the LDs and what's left of the moderate Labour party.
 
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OxygenJames

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Brexit is entirely the property of the Conservative Party.
Nonsense. It is because people wanted it. Cameron HAD to put it in his manifesto because Farage was getting such public support. You have a very limited understanding of how public opinion creates policy. The government is always lead by the people in a true democracy. Which is what we have.
 

OxygenJames

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 8, 2012
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good read:
Alistair Campbell on why Labour lost so many MPs in this election.

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/alastair-campbell-on-labour-failure-at-general-election-1-6425405

QUOTE:

...

I [Campbell] detected some warmth and pockets of massive enthusiasm for Corbyn - but in key battlegrounds these were dwarfed by the doubts of so many people that he had what it took to be prime minister.

These were not people likely to turn out at rallies and chant his name, or the name of any other politician. They were neither ideological right nor ideological left. Many of them, dare I say it given the Corbynistas helped turn the name of Labour's most successful leader into a swear word, voted for New Labour and, even if they didn't, saw Tony Blair as a strong leader and a capable prime minister in a way they struggled to see Corbyn.

That truth - which has been evident for some time and was merely briefly camouflaged by Labour's better than expected result in 2017 - lay at the heart of Johnson's determination to get his winter election the moment he took over from May. Why on earth the Liberal Democrats and the SNP chose to fall into his trap, thus ramping the pressure on Corbyn to do likewise, is beyond me. To do so as the support for a People's Vote in the last parliament was growing not receding was equally baffling.

The commentators will now queue to say what a great campaigner Johnson is, how the simplicity of 'Take Back Control' was matched by the simplicity of 'Get Brexit Done', and the message delivered with such consistency that it won the day. But a message only connects if it is rooted in reality, and if your opponents let you get away with it. You need both of those things to win with it.

That it is not rooted in reality will become apparent quickly enough. With his majority, Johnson can get Brexit done to the extent that he can pass his withdrawal agreement. But then the really tricky stuff starts, as we seek to negotiate the detailed exit with the EU, and trade deals with others such as the US, at a time when our negotiation leverage on both fronts is weaker than ever. However, it was the letting him get away with it by his opponents that helped him deliver that message, ramped of course by the Brexit Lie Machine newspapers, a handicap to Corbyn that I do not minimise, not least for the influence they have in the framing of the campaign by the broadcasters. But precisely because Johnson wanted to talk about Brexit at every turn, Labour wanted to avoid the subject.

There were two parts to the Johnson message - get Brexit done and then focus on the things that really matter to people. Only by demolishing the first were Labour likely to get the hearing they needed on the second. Labour appeared to view Brexit as a tactical inconvenience, rather than the defining issue of our time. How else to explain the near- invisibility of Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry, shadow Brexit secretary and shadow foreign secretary respectively?

The answer, of course, may be that Labour knew that truth about Corbyn, and in some ways were less focused on doing what was needed to win the general election than on what would follow in the wake of defeat, so perhaps wanted to keep possible leadership rivals out of the picture, and instead promote true believers Rebecca Long-Bailey, Richard Burgon, Laura Pidcock, the chosen few. It did not help win over those who needed to be won.
Campbell was a major part of Labours problem in that he insisted on moving them towards a Remain stance - it was Labour taking such a Remain stance (and Corbyn as an inept leader) that caused this massive loss.
 
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Zlatan

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Campbell was a major part of Labours problem in that he insisted on moving them towards a Remain stance - it was Labour taking such a Remain stance (and Corbyn as an inept leader) that caused this massive loss.
Campbell resigned in 2003.(Over Kelly affair) He was expelled from being even a member of Labour Party.(for voting Libdem, which should have bern a wake up call, but no they sack him) He has had zero influence over their policies in over a decade. He, s been a commentator, but no more.
With his and Blairs actions on war Labour party was taken further left. Its been a catastrophic mistake for labour. Yes, Blair and Campbell were wrong over the war and hated for their actions but their politics represented a much higher proportion of country than Momentum ever did.
Labour have allowed, or used, the actions of centrist politicians to justify a move to left, when country is going in other direction.
 
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Woosh

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Wrong. Boris is a natural liberal - he's a comic for christs sake - he will lean left - move the Tory's back to the centre on all the main issues. He intends to reclaim the centre from the LDs and what's left of the moderate Labour party.
no more than David Cameron and what happened to his party? Farage happens.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Music to the Tory ears. Labour in disarray and infighting, again.
The writing is on the wall but Labour controllers insist on same approach.
Labour spout about being a broad Church but are anything but.
Deluded.
 
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Woosh

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best thing that can happen to Labour is to split it into Momentum and New Labour. Momentum will be like the Green, lots of members and 1 seat. New Labour will beat the tories for the middle ground.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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best thing that can happen to Labour is to split it into Momentum and New Labour. Momentum will be like the Green, lots of members and 1 seat. New Labour will beat the tories for the middle ground.
Divide and conquer though Woosh.
Why cant both be "united"..
 

Woosh

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I meant review A50 itself, not how it was invoked fro the UK - having seen the issues with its existing wording and application.
A50 works out exactly as it was intended, to discourage members from leaving by placing the member on a cliff edge without knowing what the future is like.
Next time when another member leaves, the negotiation will be quicker and less need for extension because of our experience.
If there is an improvement, it should be to define the cost of membership during the implementation period. At present, we pay 100% fee in 2020 and have zero influence.
 
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