Brexit, for once some facts.

flecc

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I very much doubt labour can get their act together within 5 years - so I'd say we've got - at least - ten years of Tory rule ahead.
The SNP is a big factor, while they dominate in Scotland Labour can never win against the dominance of the Tories in the South of the country.

Scottish independance could destroy any chance of the UK having a true Socialist government. We'd be left with a choice of right or far right, rather like that in the USA.
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Zlatan

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The SNP is a big factor, while they dominate in Scotland Labour can never win against the dominance of the Tories in the South of the country.

Scottish independance could destroy any chance of the UK having a true Socialist government. We'd be left with a choice of right or far right, rather like that in the USA.
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I dont agree. There is loads of support for a centrist party in England. We just don't have one. All those voters BJ has just attracted are proof. The old working class dogma of hating all Tories is gone. (except in Hull) Either Labour change and utilises that group or they remain supporting Tory.
 
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wheeler

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Yes it did. in 2017:

Tories: 318 seats, Labour 262 seats.

The SNP had fallen back to 35 back then so Labour wasn't as deprived of so many seats up there.

Now with the SNP getting 55 seats, that 20 more made a big difference in what was once a Labour stronghold. Add the handful in the Leave areas switching from Labour to Tory to "getBrexit done" and you have the 2019 result

You're all so obsessed with repeating the media lies about Corbyn that you've failed to see all the other aspects of what is going on.
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Just for the sake of accuracy, the SNP got 47 seats, plus one ex SNP candidate won his seat as an independent. The media are all reporting this as an SNP win, however he will remain an independent at least until the outcome of the party's disciplinary proceedings.
 
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Zlatan

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Another silver lining is that our current government is probably the least London centric we, ve had for decades. Northern towns/Cities might just get a look in now, seen as they put Boris in power.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I dont agree. There is loads of support for a centrist party in England. We just don't have one. All those voters BJ has just attracted are proof. The old working class dogma of hating all Tories is gone. (except in Hull) Either Labour change and utilises that group or they remain supporting Tory.
As Woosh has shown and the facts clearly show, Boris Johnson's Tory gains have been very modest.

The big factor has been the huge rise of the SNP in recent decades depriving Labour of their dominance there in Scotland.

There's no point in a centrist party if in truth it's just another Tory one like Blair's New Labour, since it's not a real choice. Any hint of it being socialist and there will be no middle England vote for it.

Just look what happened to Corbyn. The costs and scope of his moderate program were far less than than many in Europe, like Sweden's for example, but he was crucified by the claims that it was Communist, Marxist and extreme, all demonstrably untrue.

In one form or another, Conservatism has a stranglehold on power in England, with only Scotland large enough to offset that to any degree. The relative sizes of Northern Ireland and Wales mean they have no chance of doing so alone.

That's the reality.
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Zlatan

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The SNP is a big factor, while they dominate in Scotland Labour can never win against the dominance of the Tories in the South of the country.

Scottish independance could destroy any chance of the UK having a true Socialist government. We'd be left with a choice of right or far right, rather like that in the USA.
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I sort of agree with this but with a caveat. Over the years there has been a drift away from our probably now outdated party politics. There are leavers and remainers in both Tory and Labour. There are other divisions grouping people, probably its time recognise this. I never thought I, d ever see the day Rothervalley Tory. I witnessed Scargill's arrest and the treatment handed out to miners by bused in police. If folk near that picket line would have said within a generation locals would be voting tory they would have thought you completely mad.
 

flecc

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Another silver lining is that our current government is probably the least London centric we, ve had for decades. Northern towns/Cities might just get a look in now, seen as they put Boris in power.
Not sure how much more of a look in that can be, considering the whole of London's surplus from earnings of £50 billions per annum is given to the regions! We get none of it, hence London having some of the most deprived and poverty stricken areas in the country.

Perhaps he'll peel the £350 millions paint from his bus and give it to them.
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Zlatan

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As Woosh has shown and the facts clearly show, Boris Johnson's Tory gains have been very modest.

The big factor has been the huge rise of the SNP in recent decades depriving Labour of their dominance there in Scotland.

There's no point in a centrist party if in truth it's just another Tory one like Blair's New Labour, since it's not a real choice. Any hint of it being socialist and there will be no middle England vote for it.

Just look what happened to Corbyn. The costs and scope of his moderate program were far less than than many in Europe, like Sweden's for example, but he was crucified by the claims that it was Communist, Marxist and extreme, all demonstrably untrue.

In one form or another, Conservatism has a stranglehold on power in England, with only Scotland large enough to offset that to any degree. The relative sizes of Northern Ireland and Wales mean they have no chance of doing so alone.

That's the reality.
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In reality does it matter what we call the party or where it stands on our outdated political spectrum if that office gives people a fairer deal. I dont care if its Tory, Torylite, red, white pink or blue if it funds NHS, gets homeless off streets, spends on education and pays decent wages to workers.
You never know Boris might just do it. We can live in hope. Because we both agree, for different reasons admittedly, there really is no other option at the moment.
 
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Zlatan

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Not sure how much more of a look in that can be, considering the whole of London's surplus from earnings of £50 billions per annum is given to the regions! We get none of it, hence London having some of the most deprived and poverty stricken areas in the country.

Perhaps he'll peel the £350 millions paint from his bus and give it to them.
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Do you mean your London built on the exploit of Northern miners, steel workers and car builders. Without the now redundant mines, steel works and factories up north there would be no London as we know it today.
We have more than our fair share of poverty.
Time we looked on the country as a whole and not regionally.
 
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flecc

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If folk near that picket line would have said within a generation locals would be voting tory they would have thought you completely mad.
True, but it's still only a tiny number as the percentage election results show. We make so little now and rely so much on services, the blue collars in large numbers have disappeared.

Remember, there is no coal picket line now, since we have no coal mining after exporting those jobs to elsewhere in the world and importing instead.

Today's so called blue collars have often been suit wearing, service industry, employees or self employed Tory voting anyway, hence the earlier ending of the compulsory levy for the Labour party that the unions used to charge members.
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flecc

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Do you mean your London built on the exploit of Northern miners, steel workers and car builders. Without the now redundant mines, steel works and factories up north there would be no London as we know it today.
We have more than our fair share of poverty.
Time we looked on the country as a whole and not regionally.
Wrong. My London built on the export of services over the last more than half a century since the collapse of all that Northern industry.

When that changed, we changed radically to suit. Time the North did the same, instead of relying on our substantial handouts and screaming for more.
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oldgroaner

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Another silver lining is that our current government is probably the least London centric we, ve had for decades. Northern towns/Cities might just get a look in now, seen as they put Boris in power.
Very funny
 

oldgroaner

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In reality does it matter what we call the party or where it stands on our outdated political spectrum if that office gives people a fairer deal. I dont care if its Tory, Torylite, red, white pink or blue if it funds NHS, gets homeless off streets, spends on education and pays decent wages to workers.
You never know Boris might just do it. We can live in hope. Because we both agree, for different reasons admittedly, there really is no other option at the moment.
Have you had a "Kicked in the head by a horse" experience since yesterday? :D
 
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oldgroaner

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The truth is that more than 50%voted for remain parties and due to our first past the post system and the way seats are won, somehow this resulted in this crashing victory for the Conservatives that is seen as a mandate for Brexit.
It is a mandate all right, for a very dangerous situation should the Government start failing to honour promises
 
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Zlatan

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Wrong. My London built on the export of services over the last more than half a century since the collapse of all that Northern industry.

When that changed, we changed radically to suit. Time the North did the same, instead of relying on our substantial handouts and screaming for more.
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Without the industries mentioned there would have been no London to change. For centuries the wealth of country relied on filth dug from ground and made into stuff. London developed from selling organizing, distributing and services like insurance for those industries miles away.
Country to this day ows a debt to miners, steel workers all over UK. There simply would be no Great Britain without them.
 

Zlatan

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Its a seesaw with 650 positions. The balance point is at 325. ,He moves over to the 365 slot . This landslide is actually 40/650
The slide is irrelevant. Its his number surplus to all combined opposition. (mathematically) That is 80.For various reasons this is not the figure available to him, but its the number used historically to show strength of government. Compared to May and pre election numbers he is very strong. He, s almost as strong as Thatcher in 87.
Besides there arent actually ever 650 mps who vote. One is speaker, some are usually ill and Sinn Fein never attend. Your balance point misses all those.
The important maths is how many MPs he needs in attendance to out vote oppositio. If Tories follow whip Boris can have 79 absent and just beat all opposition. (If, and its now a big if, all oppostion are united)
Boris has a very strong government no matter how you look at it.
 
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