Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
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No it isnt, its the sentiments of millions. You seem to like and admire EU representitives and system over ours. Ours is flawed, as current mess demonstrates, but holding view EU' s is equally if not more flawed is perfectly valid and its an opinion which should be respected, not insulted, even if disagreed with.
Its the crux of the issue. Who governs us? I want to keep Westminster. You dont.
No matter how many times you tell me and 17.4 million others we are wrong or misguided or racist or whatever does not change the simple fact I dont want to be governed by or from Brussels. End of.
Two centres of power are an anachronism,only one is possible, viable and sensible. Its Brussels or Westminster. If we remain we should close our shadow of power. If we leave thats fine too. But the ridiculous limbo we, ve been in last 3 years is destroying us all.
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OK. Serious question. Do you think people below a certain IQ should not be allowed to vote? Or framed another way - do you think the people of Barnsley as a whole should not be allowed to vote?
This is a myth. We will have to have a trade deal with the EU and freedom of movement will come with it, as every other example shows.
The best example is that of Switzerland that I illustrated with a program link in the post that started this thread. Seven years, 120 trading agreements later and still locked into freedom of movement. When the Swiss tried to legally cop out by restricting migration from member countries, the EU threatened the loss of all those trade agreements.
The program is still available, it's only a little over 5 minute extract to listen to on this link.
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Precisely, which is why there should never have been a referendum and the result of it should have been ignored in the national interest.
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Who do you admire OG? Anybody? Any political figures past or present? Religious figures? Anybody at all? Or are you cynical about every politician who has ever lived?
We are both being oportunistic with application?
Besides our current situation is partly caused by MPs operating on their conscience rather than constituent's wishes, on both aspects.
How many MPs ignore the very principles and policies they were elected on. Representitive democracy does not mean an MP can act in total defiance to manifesto?
They all do...
Perhaps the 1975 referendum was advisory too. We should never have joined?
Once we, ve had a referendum the result can not be unsaid. Parties would ignore result at their peril.
This is utter nonsense, there always has to be layers of power since complexity makes an all embracing single layer impossible. Just look at the UK's many layers from parish councils through to national assemblies and governments.
As I've so often pointed out to you but you seem unable to grasp, within the EU we continue to make our own laws and run our own country. Every EU law is optional, some bring benefits that we lose if we don't adopt them, and I see nothing wrong in that since the choice is ours so we've always held the power.
Every single argument for Brexit is a lie.
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Wrong. Integrity was and remains trusting our tried and trusted internationally admired parliamentary system.
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The 1975 referendum should also never have been held and I always opposed it.
But of course we should have joined because that was our parliament's decision.
You don't seem to understand that you are arguing against yourself, opposed to what you see as split control from both London and Brussels but in favour of splitting control between parliament and peoples referenda.
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No, I dont. I dont think we should have referendum, but once we have the decision should be followed.
But once we go the referenda route, it should continue. It shouldn't be said a referendum just once and that's it cast in stone. That is not democracy.
Just as parliament can and often does change it's mind as circumstances change, so the same must apply to referenda.
In the over three years since the referendum the circumstances have changed drastically:
1) The outcome doesn't even remotely resemble what we were told by either campaign, both deal attempts very poor.
2) Brexit is acknowledged by both sides to be certain to make us worse off, either for a long time of possibly indefinitely.
3) Every poll for well over a year shows the public has changed its mind, the majority for Remain being consistently four times the one that was for Leave at th 2016 referendum. Just as we've often changed our minds which party and manifesto to put into power, we must be allowed to change our minds now for this momentous decision, or this is not a democracy any more.
As proof, remember that this attempt at departure is entirely down to a tiny number of elderly Tory party members voting BJ as PM without any GE or manifesto. Some democracy!
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Generally I think anyone who qualifies now should be allowed to vote in a GE.
Something like the EU referendum is different. I admit that I didn’t fully understand the issues fully and probably should not have voted. I understand more now, probably not all of it, but I am capable of gathering evidence, assessing it and making a decision.
So, to answer your question, no I don’t think the people of Barnsley should vote in an EU membership type referendum. Neither should I, you or anyone on here. It should be left to politicians to decide.
I really don't know why you want to live in the past, and that is exactly what Brexit is all about, no matter how many millions of you there are.
The simple fact that you can't escape, is that history is against isolation, that mindset is a dead end.
Since the Miners strike people in and around Barnsley have a massive distrust of
the media in general. If you try to stop people in the street and ask them their opinion, the only people who don't just carry on walking are liable to be the village idiots.