Brexit, for once some facts.

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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But once we go the referenda route, it should continue. It shouldn't be said a referendum just once and that's it cast in stone. That is not democracy.

Just as parliament can and often does change it's mind as circumstances change, so the same must apply to referenda.

In the over three years since the referendum the circumstances have changed drastically:

1) The outcome doesn't even remotely resemble what we were told by either campaign, both deal attempts very poor.

2) Brexit is acknowledged by both sides to be certain to make us worse off, either for a long time of possibly indefinitely.

3) Every poll for well over a year shows the public has changed its mind, the majority for Remain being consistently four times the one that was for Leave at th 2016 referendum. Just as we've often changed our minds which party and manifesto to put into power, we must be allowed to change our minds now for this momentous decision, or this is not a democracy any more.

As proof, remember that this attempt at departure is entirely down to a tiny number of elderly Tory party members voting BJ as PM without any GE or manifesto. Some democracy!
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I said well over 6 months ago we should have ref2.
 

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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I really don't know why you want to live in the past, and that is exactly what Brexit is all about, no matter how many millions of you there are.
The simple fact that you can't escape, is that history is against isolation, that mindset is a dead end.
That is your opinion and you are free to hold it and express it. I disagree. The EU is too large with too much economic disparity to be democratic.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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The company I worked for sold off it's entire boiler manufacturing worldwide after our research indicated heat pump technology would inevitably replace them.
It's continuing to happen in London. My council on a next door council estate is refurbishing a ten storey block and replacing its old central heating with a heat pump system extracting heat from over 200 metres depth. Specialist company Kensa are intending to complete the latter by the Spring. The forecast saving for each of the block's residents is between £260 and £300 per annum, no doubt very welcome.
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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They are currently voting on Letwin. Lets hope it fails.If so, we might get a decision today.
 

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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It's continuing to happen in London. My council on a next door council estate is refurbishing a ten storey block and replacing its old central heating with a heat pump system extracting heat from over 200 metres depth. Specialist company Kensa are intending to complete the latter by the Spring. The forecast saving for each of the block's residents is between £260 and £300 per annum, no doubt very welcome.
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I used to have an air sourced heat pump for house heating. Was brilliant. Generally worked to a factor of 5,(got 5mwh when using 1) Always amazed me how it still worked on actually quite cold days. (think it worked down to minus 10deg C, but perfprmance dropped off below 4deg C.)
Friend had ground sourced in France for heating pool... Was useless. Pool always cold. Small sample, but the air sourced was quiet, efficient and reliable. The ground sourced cost a fortune fitting, think they dug a 25ft deep pit)
 

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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Letwin has got through.
What a shambles.
322 to 306
Another decision to not make one.
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Friend had ground sourced in France for heating pool... Was useless. Pool always cold. Small sample, but the air sourced was quiet, efficient and reliable. The ground sourced cost a fortune fitting, think they dug a 25ft deep pit)
Not surprising, 25 feet isn't remotely deep enough. These deep ones like the 200 metre bore holes I quoted do work well.

But as you say, the air sourced are brilliant as my car one shows, even in the coldest weather.
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
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So how can Johnson not now apply for the extension? The law requires him to do so.
he is not writing that letter tonight.
My guess is Gina Miller will have to take him to the High Court on Monday, then Court of Appeal then the Supreme Court. If he loses at the Supreme Court, the police can enter No 10 to arrest him. The earliest time is probably next Friday. He may just write that letter then.
Now everyone can see why Letwin was right about Bojo. Nobody can trust him, starting with the DUP.
 
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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The Letwin result is a fair indication BJ would have lost his vote today. Had that been case BJ would be on ropes and in a far worse postion than he is now. EU would have demanded ref2/GE for a delay. As it is delay will be for another parliamentary vote. They might not grant it. Letwin might have been working for BJ???
 
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Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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Not surprising, 25 feet isn't remotely deep enough. These deep ones like the 200 metre bore holes I quoted do work well.

But as you say, the air sourced are brilliant as my car one shows, even in the coldest weather.
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There are two forms of ground source. .. deep source where the pipes are upwards are upwards of 2km cumulative.... Say 5 or 6 tubes of 200m depth. Soil temperature at 200 m is warmer. There were also shallow or surface types, where there are plenty of parallel tubes at a depth of 1 to 2 metre ..just below the frost line. This is much cheaper but effectively sterilises an extended area. Trees ,shrubs etc will have truncated growth because of the reduced soil temperature.
Either version should have better CoPs than Air Source, particularly in low temperatures.
My air source system is very coastal, so temperatures are higher in winter than further inland. .. Also the higher increased humidity,which allows increased energy from latent heat of vapourisation
 
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50Hertz

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 2, 2019
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he is not writing that letter tonight.
My guess is Gina Miller will have to take him to the High Court on Monday, then Court of Appeal then the Supreme Court. If he loses at the Supreme Court, the police can enter No 10 to arrest him. The earliest time is probably next Friday. He may just write that letter then.
Now everyone can see why Letwin was right about Bojo. Nobody can trust him, starting with the DUP.
That’s disgusting. He assured the courts very recently that he would write the letter.

What a thoroughly dishonest and untrustworthy man Johnson is. He has no business representing anyone on here as their PM. How must this look to other nations around the world?

We are doing huge damage this this country.
 

OxygenJames

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 8, 2012
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Integrity was and remains trusting our tried and trusted internationally admired parliamentary system.
Says the man who suggests the referendum result should be ignored!

Flecc. You really did ask for that. But you're one of the more reasonable voices on this crazy thread so you're still fine in my eyes.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,379
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Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
The Letwin result is a fair indication BJ would have lost his vote today. Had that been case BJ would be on ropes and in a far worse postion than he is now. EU would have demanded ref2/GE for a delay. As it is delay will be for another parliamentary vote. They might not grant it. Letwin might have been working for BJ???
we would need only a technical extension long enough for the WAB to pass, about 6 weeks. The EU parliament may need a little longer but they'll ratify before Christmas.
The only effect of the vote is so that Bojo can't cheat as you can see by his reaction this afternoon after the vote.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Says the man who suggests the referendum result should be ignored!

Flecc. You really did ask for that. But you're one of the more reasonable voices on this crazy thread so you're still fine in my eyes.
Thank you. But I was justifying ignoring the referendum on the basis of our norm of parliamentary democracy.

But if we must stick with using referenda now, then let's have a confirming one now since the reasons for that are far more valid than they were for the 2016 one.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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The EU is too large with too much economic disparity to be democratic.
In the sense you mean this, so is the UK, so is even England. One only needs to look at North South disparities to see how true this is.

But the evil of size is essential to prosperity for almost all countries in this modern world. We can't all be the Isle of Man.
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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we would need only a technical extension long enough for the WAB to pass, about 6 weeks. The EU parliament may need a little longer but they'll ratify before Christmas.
The only effect of the vote is so that Bojo can't cheat as you can see by his reaction this afternoon after the vote.
This will cost him the support of the ERG, who only supported him because he promised them he would drop the deal, to no deal after a while and protect the offshore bank accounts, as a paragraph in the WA puts them at risk

Here is the killer paragraph from the new Divorce docs
"77. Given the Union and the United Kingdom's geographic proximity and economic interdependence, the future relationship must ensure open and fair competition, encompassing robust commitments to ensure a level playing field. The precise nature of commitments should be commensurate with the scope and depth of the future relationship and the economic connectedness of the Parties. These commitments should prevent distortions of trade and unfair competitive advantages. To that end, the Parties should uphold the common high standards applicable in the Union and the United Kingdom at the end of the transition period in the areas of state aid, competition, social and employment 15 standards, environment, climate change, and relevant tax matters. The Parties should in particular maintain a robust and comprehensive framework for competition and state aid control that prevents undue distortion of trade and competition; commit to the principles of good governance in the area of taxation and to the curbing of harmful tax practices; and maintain environmental, social and employment standards at the current high levels provided by the existing common standards. In so doing, they should rely on appropriate and relevant Union and international standards, and include appropriate mechanisms to ensure effective implementation domestically, enforcement and dispute settlement. The future relationship should also promote adherence to and effective implementation of relevant internationally agreed principles and rules in these domains, including the Paris Agreement.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,203
30,604
Letwin has got through.
What a shambles.
322 to 306
Another decision to not make one.
At least it was quite decisive, I'd feared it might be by one vote or so.

We might as well scrap the whole leave idea. We have a Remain parliament, we have a population that has changed its majority mind to Remain, and we were never going to leave properly anyway.
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