Brexit, for once some facts.
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Not unlike your comments on that 'Little Scottish Women'.
I must hold my hands up to that one and concede that you've got me.
I still think there is a lot of truth in the remainder of my post though.
Tillson, it seems to me that during the period running up to and after the referendum, the brexit side has been and still is held to much lower standard of scrutiny than the remain side, not just by the media (the bbc included) but also the general electorate if one goes by the bbc QT's audiences.
It is to me entirely legitimate that parliament should be in charge of brexit. If Mrs May does not like it, she can force a new general election. I therefore condemn newspapers headlines like 'enemies of the people'.
the UK is still split in halves, until we have a clearer margin, something like 45%-55% or better, the discussion about brexit must continue. I am certain if the vote went the other way with the same margin, brexiters won't let it lie.
It is to me entirely legitimate that parliament should be in charge of brexit. If Mrs May does not like it, she can force a new general election. I therefore condemn newspapers headlines like 'enemies of the people'.
the UK is still split in halves, until we have a clearer margin, something like 45%-55% or better, the discussion about brexit must continue. I am certain if the vote went the other way with the same margin, brexiters won't let it lie.
This harping on about the will of 17.4 million Brexit voters ignores the simple fact that they are in reality whichever way you look at it, only a faction of the voting population and inescapably of the 46,500,601 eligible to vote 62.5 % did not vote in Favour.
So what? say the Brexit fans, we have a right to ruin their lives too.
Do they indeed? , the ones who didn't vote for this, deserve to be discounted?
If we don't get our own way there will be Trouble" we hear from the Brexit people, pretty much as a standard response, and from the papers and that idiot Farage.
So far this "solution" hasn't been suggested by the remain side, or it would have been blazoned all over the press.
Something to be thankful for (for the moment)
But upsetting 62.5% of the voters must be a far greater risk than upsetting 37.5% by any form of logic.
Brexit had better work out to be a better deal than it promises to be, for all our sakes.
Unrest among a faction, even a large one, can be dealt with, but unrest among the greater majority?
That constitutes a real danger.
There will have to be some interesting compromises and Salesmanship for the MP's that frankly I doubt their ability to provide, and already the Labour party has failed at the first hurdle by going with the flow and pressing for Brexit.
Corbyn has made a terminal strategic error there.
Again I think Brexit is unstoppable and disastrous.
So what? say the Brexit fans, we have a right to ruin their lives too.
Do they indeed? , the ones who didn't vote for this, deserve to be discounted?
If we don't get our own way there will be Trouble" we hear from the Brexit people, pretty much as a standard response, and from the papers and that idiot Farage.
So far this "solution" hasn't been suggested by the remain side, or it would have been blazoned all over the press.
Something to be thankful for (for the moment)
But upsetting 62.5% of the voters must be a far greater risk than upsetting 37.5% by any form of logic.
Brexit had better work out to be a better deal than it promises to be, for all our sakes.
Unrest among a faction, even a large one, can be dealt with, but unrest among the greater majority?
That constitutes a real danger.
There will have to be some interesting compromises and Salesmanship for the MP's that frankly I doubt their ability to provide, and already the Labour party has failed at the first hurdle by going with the flow and pressing for Brexit.
Corbyn has made a terminal strategic error there.
Again I think Brexit is unstoppable and disastrous.
I agree, we need a general election or BREXIT. Nothing less will do.
As a BREXIT supporter I would not be satisfied if a second vote were held and that vote overturned the one held in June. I would want a third vote within 12 months, in the same way as the remain side had asked for and won a second vote. Of course this can't happen. I think what you are actually proposing is another vote with a cut off when a vote to remain is returned?
If any second opinion is to be sought, it needs doing by way if General Election. The policy, in or out, needs to be in the manifesto.
Labour, Conservative and Lib Dems need to come clean and say that if you vote for us, we will disregard the referendum and remain in the EU. I'm sure UKIP will state the opposite. This is the only way to find a way forward with some hope of dignity.
If eligible voters didn't vote, who's fault is that?
Should we really be concerned about people who are so lazy, disinterested and useless that they can't be bothered to make a mark on a piece of paper? They don't even need to write anything for goodness sake.
months ago, I started as a brexiter because I saw already that there are so many people unhappy with the EU and thought that brexit would bring people together. I only swung over to the remain side gradually, mainly because I could not stomach the lies of the brexit leaders. I have not changed my view substantially, a soft brexit is OK. 20% devaluation is regretable though. I think what we need is to rid the lies out of the conversation then the margin will be clear enough to put the matter to rest.
once we get rid of the lies there is still the racism, xenophobia, and fact that brexit doesn't work as a business model (the devaluation being the market's opinion on it's viability). I have never been in favour of brexit - mainly because of the racism fuelling it. the fact that it is regressive - a step back into a 19th century world of nation states and protectionism fits with that paradigm. to me democracy is about mor ethan majority rule - its also about institutional democracy - rule of law, a constitution. Much of the xenophobia in brexit should in my view be condemned regardless of who or how many bigoted morons vote for it.
You are at it again . There is without a doubt some racism in the UK but not nearly as much as you make out. Of course racism is also rife through Europe especially France, but I don't think it is anything new. There will always be such people in the same way that there will always be criminals. It's part of the make up of society. What I want to know is that if the UK is such a bad place why are people risking their lives to get here and leaving France which incidentally should be ashamed of how they have treated them.
A lot of people made light of the Jo Cox murder and refused to believe it had anything to do with the lunatic ravings of the 'Brexit' originators.
The same people threw scorn on the notion that we were witnessing the rise of fascism once again in Britain, even denying the evidence of their own eyes and ears. Now, because the progress of their mad desire to plunge their country into the abyss of international isolation and economic disaster has been temporarily halted, they have turned their attention to the person responsible for bringing the matter of authority for such decisions before the courts.
Gina Miller is now the subject of a hate campaign by the far-right but I don't suppose that will bother the kind of scum who support a fascist government and have a deep-seated hatred of foreigners.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gina-miller-receives-rape-death-threats-online-after-high-court-ruling-article-50-1589840
Tom
The same people threw scorn on the notion that we were witnessing the rise of fascism once again in Britain, even denying the evidence of their own eyes and ears. Now, because the progress of their mad desire to plunge their country into the abyss of international isolation and economic disaster has been temporarily halted, they have turned their attention to the person responsible for bringing the matter of authority for such decisions before the courts.
Gina Miller is now the subject of a hate campaign by the far-right but I don't suppose that will bother the kind of scum who support a fascist government and have a deep-seated hatred of foreigners.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gina-miller-receives-rape-death-threats-online-after-high-court-ruling-article-50-1589840
Tom
Should we be concerned? yes we should as they are quite capable of being a source of trouble if made to suffer, and you hardly need to be a rocket scientist to realise that.
Don't let your pet nonsense Brexit fantasy blind you to the reality of the situation.
Voting for Brexit doesn't give you some god given right to make other people's situations worse than they already are.
Why are you so keep to discount people just because they are not behaving as you think they should?
They probably thought the whole idea was a load of nonsense and would fail without them getting involved.
That was a mistake as there are a lot more deluded people around who wanted to work out a grudge than they expected.
Don't imagine for a moment they will be happy to accept whatever misfortunes come their way through actions you have initiated.
You are as usual wearing "Brexit Blinkers"
Time to stop this wishful thinking and see what is a real risk ahead.
The whole population will be affected by this and you are on no position to write off the majority as irrelevant.
Tillson....by any poll and as important talking to people there are a very large number of Bregeters,those who voted Leave and would if a second referendum was held vote Remain.
I know nobody who voted Remain, who would vote Leave in a second referendum.
If Brexit is such a good idea why hasn't the Leave vote strengthened since the vote?
A GE would be a bad idea because May would present a manifesto that packaged Brexit within other matters,Brexit is so important it should be decided in isolation. She is clever about packing difficult decisions with attractive ones,her Great Repeal Act is an example,she wants rid of the 1972 ECA act so package it with repatriation of EU laws.
May is crafty and secretive,because of this I don't trust her,at a time when we need to trust our politicians. There was an older guy on Question Time who very emotionally asked,ok LEAVE WON BUT ONLY JUST,WHO IS LOOKING AFTER THE 16 MILLION WHO VOTED REMAIN.
Theresa May won't have a GE because these 16 million are still there and maybe now even more,if the Liberals plus SNP put a strong Remain manifesto together,they wouldn't win but they probably would have 100 plus seats,enough to hold the balance of power,they would effectively control the direction of Brexit. It is said that Brexit is not reversible but Lord Kerr,the guy who invented Article 50 said it is reversible and the EU would help us to change our minds.
The pound continues to climb now that the markets have worked out that May is not going to be allowed to wreck our country to satisfy her own selfish ambitions and parliament will now stop her doing anything stupid.
KudosDave
I know nobody who voted Remain, who would vote Leave in a second referendum.
If Brexit is such a good idea why hasn't the Leave vote strengthened since the vote?
A GE would be a bad idea because May would present a manifesto that packaged Brexit within other matters,Brexit is so important it should be decided in isolation. She is clever about packing difficult decisions with attractive ones,her Great Repeal Act is an example,she wants rid of the 1972 ECA act so package it with repatriation of EU laws.
May is crafty and secretive,because of this I don't trust her,at a time when we need to trust our politicians. There was an older guy on Question Time who very emotionally asked,ok LEAVE WON BUT ONLY JUST,WHO IS LOOKING AFTER THE 16 MILLION WHO VOTED REMAIN.
Theresa May won't have a GE because these 16 million are still there and maybe now even more,if the Liberals plus SNP put a strong Remain manifesto together,they wouldn't win but they probably would have 100 plus seats,enough to hold the balance of power,they would effectively control the direction of Brexit. It is said that Brexit is not reversible but Lord Kerr,the guy who invented Article 50 said it is reversible and the EU would help us to change our minds.
The pound continues to climb now that the markets have worked out that May is not going to be allowed to wreck our country to satisfy her own selfish ambitions and parliament will now stop her doing anything stupid.
KudosDave
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These words from Gina Miller nail the problem that 'Brexiters' refuse to see:
Speaking after the High Court announced its verdict, Ms Miller told the BBC the case was about scrutinising the details of Brexit, such as "how we leave, how they're going to negotiate, the directions of travel the government will take".
She said: "What we're saying is, very simply, you can't have it both ways. You can't talk about getting back a sovereign Parliament and being in control but at the same time then bypass it."
Ms Miller added that the challenge was about more than Brexit.
"This case is far more fundamental than that.
"It is about any government, any prime minister, in the future being able to take away people's rights without consulting Parliament.
"We cannot have a democracy like that. That isn't a democracy, that is verging on dictatorship."
Tom
Speaking after the High Court announced its verdict, Ms Miller told the BBC the case was about scrutinising the details of Brexit, such as "how we leave, how they're going to negotiate, the directions of travel the government will take".
She said: "What we're saying is, very simply, you can't have it both ways. You can't talk about getting back a sovereign Parliament and being in control but at the same time then bypass it."
Ms Miller added that the challenge was about more than Brexit.
"This case is far more fundamental than that.
"It is about any government, any prime minister, in the future being able to take away people's rights without consulting Parliament.
"We cannot have a democracy like that. That isn't a democracy, that is verging on dictatorship."
Tom
I believe that racism may have skewed the refrendum result a bit but I wouldn't put it at more than 1%-2%. You can't rid society of racism any way. If you trust the polls, 5% have swung to remain in 4 months. At current rate of mood change, by the time Mrs May triggers article 500 when inflation will have hit the pain threshold of brexiters (2.5%), another 5% will swing to remain, there will be cclear momentum of public opinion against brexit. If Mrs May calls a general election in May then brexit will be reversed by the new government. That's my guess.
If May held a GE there would be a strong remain vote that would split the vote,I suppose it would be us Remainers chance to have our own protest vote.
Anyone who stood on an anti-Brexit,anti-Heathrow,anti-HS2 manifesto would have a strong vote in London and the corridor Birmingham to London.
If the Liberals got their act together they would do a lot of damage to the Tories majority,they and the SNP would hold the balance of Power.
KudosDave
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