Brexit, for once some facts.

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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Hooray...Theresa May has lost the legal action for her to trigger Article 50...the first put down to May.....she now has to battle through the Commons and as important the House of Lords.
Looks like commonsense has been legally upheld by the courts,May will have to explain to parliament exactly what form Brexit will take,if Brexit happens at all....there will now be transparency about Brexit.
To use the words of many Brexiters....Remain won,Brexit lost,deal with it,hehe
The pound bounced 1% on the news.
To use Churchills words 'is this the beginning of the end of Brexit or the end of the beginning'
KudosDave
 
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derf

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 4, 2014
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Interesting that the High Court made that decision - I think it is correct but it will have to go to the Supreme Court before we have clarity. Bit of a spanner, at least temporarily, in the 3 Brexiteers plans to charge ahead off the cliff.
eureka
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3898716/D-Day-Brexit-Britain-s-exit-EU-DELAYED-landmark-court-case-rules-Theresa-start-EU-talks-without-MPs-vote.html
To blatantly defy the BREXIT vote would be a new low for parliament. It's hard to believe that they can sink any lower, but defying the referendum would do it.

As I've said before, to just ignore the vote would provide fertile ground for right wing politics and seriously weaken Con Lab Libs. In addition, I think it would lead to civil unrest.

I have reached the conclusion that we will not be leaving the EU. Whether that is a good or bad thing is what divides us on this thread. What is a very bad and dangerous situation is that if we don't leave, it sets us off down the road of ignoring a democratic decision. After it has been done once, it doesn't seem so outrageous the second time. Whilst it may delight those who support remain on this occasion, will that always be so when similar decisions to ignore democracy are taken in future?

The consequences of a blatant rejection of the referendum are so serious that I think May will spend whatever sum of money is necessary to engineer and hoodwinking the public into remaining in the EU.
I think you, fundamentally, misunderstand how a parliamentary democracy works.
 

oldgroaner

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I see that the first element of the great deception is in place.

Stand-by for a half arsed appeal.
You lose heart too easily, this won't make a ha'porth of difference, the die is cast, sadly.
All an illusion.
Buck up tillson, "England expects and all that!"
 

derf

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You lose heart too easily, this won't make a ha'porth of difference, the die is cast, sadly.
All an illusion.
Buck up tillson, "England expects and all that!"
I don't think so, asset strippers and hedge funds may like it if we leave, but very substantial vested interests, such as pension funds, will take a fatal hit, and I don't think the establishment will allow that to happen.
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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Hooray...Theresa May has lost the legal action for her to trigger Article 50...the first put down to May.....she now has to battle through the Commons and as important the House of Lords.
Looks like commonsense has been legally upheld by the courts,May will have to explain to parliament exactly what form Brexit will take,if Brexit happens at all....there will now be transparency about Brexit.
To use the words of many Brexiters....Remain won,Brexit lost,deal with it,hehe
The pound bounced 1% on the news.
To use Churchills words 'is this the beginning of the end of Brexit or the end of the beginning'
KudosDave
She hasn't lost, she has won. This is precisely what she wanted.

A great day for democracy. Unelected people that nobody wants or knows who they are make these decisions.
 

oldgroaner

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I don't think so, asset strippers and hedge funds may like it if we leave, but very substantial vested interests, such as pension funds, will take a fatal hit, and I don't think the establishment will allow that to happen.
I am not convinced that enough of the MP's will risk taking so onerous a decision, considering the risks involved.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,262
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I am not convinced that enough of the MP's will risk taking so onerous a decision, considering the risks involved.

They may act in a different way, not blocking article 50 notice but imposing conditions on the type and nature of Brexit, with the final EU deal subject to parliamentary acceptance.

In other words, putting themselves in charge, as they should have been all along, rather than it being handed to a public vote.
.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
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They may act in a different way, not blocking article 50 notice but imposing conditions on the type and nature of Brexit, with the final EU deal subject to parliamentary acceptance.

In other words, putting themselves in charge, as they should have been all along, rather than it being handed to a public vote.
.
To that there needs to be an understanding with the EU that the process of leaving is reversible, which surely should be the next step if the strategy is as you suggest.
 
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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It appears that Theresa May has decided to appeal the court decision,ironically that could be a bad decision,the judges ruling was pretty damning and the Supreme Court is unlikely to overturn it,that would cause a constitutional crisis.
Also if the government won in the Supreme Court,the claimants could appeal the case to the ECJ....that would be amusing that the EU could ultimately decide who has the right to trigger Article 50.
Consensus is that the commons will vote May to trigger Article 50 but they may introduce so many amendments that Brexit will be so super soft that it will be indistinguishable from what we have now....for example they could say that we must stay in the single market,they could say that Scotland should be involved,they could say no border in Ireland,
When the commons have finished their scrutiny,then the House of Lords will have their say.
Personally I think the Lords will delay it such that triggering Article 50 will not be triggered by March end then May has to overcome the majority ruling in the EU,she was hoping to avoid that.
Do you think Boris's Titanic gaffe was intentional,either he is stupid or doesn't care,Theresa May was said to have her head in her hands,she must cringe every time Boris opens his uncontrolled mouth.
KudosDave
 
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derf

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To blatantly defy the BREXIT vote would be a new low for parliament. It's hard to believe that they can sink any lower, but defying the referendum would do it.

As I've said before, to just ignore the vote would provide fertile ground for right wing politics and seriously weaken Con Lab Libs. In addition, I think it would lead to civil unrest.

I have reached the conclusion that we will not be leaving the EU. Whether that is a good or bad thing is what divides us on this thread. What is a very bad and dangerous situation is that if we don't leave, it sets us off down the road of ignoring a democratic decision. After it has been done once, it doesn't seem so outrageous the second time. Whilst it may delight those who support remain on this occasion, will that always be so when similar decisions to ignore democracy are taken in future?

The consequences of a blatant rejection of the referendum are so serious that I think May will spend whatever sum of money is necessary to engineer and hoodwinking the public into remaining in the EU.
you must have spent the past twenty years in a different united kingdom than I. practically every single major political decision has been contrary to the democratic mandate, right through form the war in Iraq, the outcome of every public inquiry and every broken electoral manifesto promise. The UK has a very rich history of politicians breaking promises to the public. It's practically all they do. I used to think it a bad thing, until this recent outbreak neo-facist brexit rash infected the disconcertingly gullible electorate.
 
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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She hasn't lost, she has won. This is precisely what she wanted.

A great day for democracy. Unelected people that nobody wants or knows who they are make these decisions.
Till son...just don't get what you say....parliament will now scrutinise the form of Brexit,they are sovereign and are elected.
What nobody gave the government was what form Brexit should take,the referendum was subject to the Tory manifesto that said we should stay in the single market and yet May said that she was prioritising immigration control over the single market.
May will now have to be transparent to parliament,that will mean our elected chamber will have a say on the make up of Brexit.
May is probably fed up,she now realises she cannot act like a dictator and must work with parliament,which is wholly right.
Amusing Fox in parliament looked sheepish.
KudosDave
 
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oldgroaner

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Do you think Boris's Titanic gaffe was intentional,either he is stupid or doesn't care,Theresa May was said to have her head in her hands,she must cringe every time Boris opens his uncontrolled mouth.
KudosDave
It's surely just a case of Boris getting desperate to get the sack and abandon the ultimate "Sinking Ship" posting, hence the allusion to the Titanic.
He will resort to defecting to UKIP next with the intent of standing for the leadership. (If all else fails!):D
 

derf

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Yes, he has a lifelong history of making cleverly placed mischievous comments, known for it even when very young.
.
yes that's him putting down the paving for that quick dart back to the remain side once it becomes clear brexit has failed. No doubt this comment will become the basis for saying he was on the remain side all along.
 
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oldgroaner

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I wonder how long before stories of "lively discussions" AKA "punch ups" are reported from the bars and lobbies of the good old HOC?
Observing the atmosphere of goodwill among MP's would be better entertainment than the Tele! :confused:
 
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oldgroaner

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yes that's him putting down the paving for that quick dart back to the remain side once it becomes clear brexit has failed. No doubt this comment will become the basis for saying he was on the remain side all along.
If you recall he has already made just that statement two days before changing sides to lead the leave campaign, and May did the same.
This is like watching "musical chairs", or is it "Pass the parcel"?
We could syndicate the TV feed from Westminster and call it
"No, Prime Minister" much better than the Soaps.
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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The problem with the people to whom you take exception Dave is that they don't understand the meaning of the word 'racism' - they think they do but they don't! Just because someone passes the time of day with a black bloke at work or down the pub doesn't mean that person isn't racist but to those whom you refer, that is justification enough to demonstrate in their minds that they are obviously not racist.

Sadly, with regard to the subject matter of this thread, such an inability to comprehend that discrimination on the basis of colour is not the only form of racism, is commonly accompanied by the inability to distinguish between tory government policies and those of the EU. It is not by accident that all the extreme right-wing groups flocked to demonstrate their devotion to the UK, (although perhaps to England would be more accurate), when minor, fascist politicians began their rabble-rousing rhetoric, pre-referendum.

One only needs to discover who owns the gutter press, read by so many of the 'Brexit' devotees and appreciate why they print what they do, to understand where the motivation for all the racist, fascist and anarchist groupings comes from. The hatred for all forms of socialism, trade unions, foreigners, immigrants, the sick, the disabled, the poor and the lower classes generally, reflects the base instincts of mankind. We like to think that the UK is a civilised society but unfortunately, we have failed to progress much beyond the 19th century in many ways.

Today, the judiciary will rule on the matter of Article 50 but I have little faith in that body of people, so closely connected with the same upper class I mentioned. It will be interesting to to hear their pronouncement and perhaps an explanation of the logic behind their decision, nonetheless.

It may have escaped some of the anti-EU brigade that none of the major 'Brexit' spokespersons emerged in politics from a poor background. Were those people to look to our history, they would note that Oswald Mosley, another fascist with the de rigueur racist views and close connections to royalty and high society, didn't exactly pull himself up by his bootlaces from an ignoble birth.

D8ve, you are absolutely right to feel aggrieved by some of the comments from the 'Brexit' camp in this forum but you need to understand that these people have no shame. Such repulsive people are the backbone of the tory party, blindly following the opinions presented to them by the tory high-command via their propaganda organs, the British news media. From an early age, they have been indoctrinated and we know from experience how such mind-bending works. The RC church has depended on the teachings of the Jesuits for its survival and the British military, like all others, delivers a particular way of ensuring obediance and solidarity in such a professional, well-honed manner that the recipients don't even realise they have been brainwashed. Lifelong compliance results!

Tom
The problem with people like Old Tom is that they do not understand what racism is. They have never experienced it, they have never witnessed and they have never put themselves in harms way in order to stop it. Nor would they ever do so. If they had done any of these things then they would place more value on the term racism. They have such little regard for racism or its affects that they prefer instead to use it as a convenient tool to insult people with who they disagree. When conventional argument becomes exhausted and they have run out of facts with which to further their ideas, they reach for the racism mallet in the vain hope that it will silence their critics.

People like Old Tom are extremely quick to express synthetic moral outrage, but very lacking on direct action. He may consider himself to be benevolent and a socialist, but in his world this is little more than an ideal which he prescribes for "others" to fund and live out. A rank hypocrisy in its most vile form.

I quite literally would not extinguish him with my urine if he were to catch fire. I would also restrain my dog from doing likewise.
 

derf

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 4, 2014
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The problem with people like Old Tom is that they do not understand what racism is. They have never experienced it, they have never witnessed and they have never put themselves in harms way in order to stop it. Nor would they ever do so. If they had done any of these things then they would place more value on the term racism. They have such little regard for racism or its affects that they prefer instead to use it as a convenient tool to insult people with who they disagree. When conventional argument becomes exhausted and they have run out of facts with which to further their ideas, they reach for the racism mallet in the vain hope that it will silence their critics.

People like Old Tom are extremely quick to express synthetic moral outrage, but very lacking on direct action. He may consider himself to be benevolent and a socialist, but in his world this is little more than an ideal which he prescribes for "others" to fund and live out. A rank hypocrisy in its most vile form.

I quite literally would not extinguish him with my urine if he were to catch fire. I would also restrain my dog from doing likewise.
one definition of racism is that it is a form of prejudice in which one uses stereotype - ones own caricature of others, or rather of how one would want others to see them - to justify discriminating against them or belittling them. To me your post about old Tom is full of all that. None of us know enough about each other on this forum to arrive at such damming conclusions. But then again, brexit was all about stereotyping and discrimination too. Such as the one about immigrants only coming to the UK for benefits. So the caricature used to stereotype others have much to do with one's own repressed desires (inasmuch as many brexit voters are exactly the kind of benefit scroungers they would like the world to believe immigrants are)
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
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A great day for democracy.
yes, you are correct on this point.
Mrs May appointed herself as the supreme monarch in this instance without the necessary votes. The Court is right to deny her motion, basically saying that our laws are above her. As Ms Miller said, it's a point of procedure. Parliament's job is to make the right choices for the people. If parliament thinks that people made a mistake, it can and must ask the people to vote again.
 
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