Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldtom]

I think you, fundamentally, misunderstand how a parliamentary democracy works.

So it would seem but the rich, royalty, the aristocracy, the tory party and their brainwashed supporters are all terrified by democracy lest the common people rise up against them and strip them of their ill-gotten wealth. That is why they need to control the masses by feeding them only such news as they wish the tax-paying millions to hear from their propaganda agents.

As well as that control, we have a sham democracy, heavily weighted against the common people by way of strategically-constructed constituency boundaries. Everything is fine with the rich people's world until the common people demand more than the odd crumb from the master's table.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

This seems to sum up the 'Brexit' position right at this moment:



Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

Just read this....

The most fundamental rule of UK constitutional law is that parliament is sovereign, and that legislation enacted by both Houses of Parliament is supreme. If “Brexit means Brexit”, the court has confirmed that only parliament can trigger it. Both Houses of Parliament now need to stand up for the national interest and demand accountability from the executive, and for their constituents. The courts have done their bit for the rule of law. Parliament, on behalf of all of us, now needs to do the same.
Gina Miller should be given a knighthood,take note your majesty!!!
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

This remark by Kinnock is one of the reasons I think Brexit will, unfortunately still go ahead
"
But Mr Kinnock accused Mr Raab and Mrs May of being "scared" of MPs.

"There was a pre-referendum majority for Remain in the House of Commons, there is now a post-referendum clear majority for Leave," he said."

Why has a Referendum changed these people's minds? do the facts no longer matter more than appealing to a tiny majority in a non legally binding opinion Poll?
Sorry folks, but there isn't any hope to be had from the MP's.
The self serving lot are too keen on keeping their jobs to do the obvious and right thing, turncoats describes them completely and to hell with the consequences.
Brexit is still very definitely GO
No one is going to come riding over the hill in shining armour to the rescue.
The Turkeys will have their Christmas.
Stuffing anyone? Actually that should be "Stuffing Everyone"

 

[Kudoscycles]

This remark by Kinnock is one of the reasons I think Brexit will, unfortunately still go ahead
"
But Mr Kinnock accused Mr Raab and Mrs May of being "scared" of MPs.

"There was a pre-referendum majority for Remain in the House of Commons, there is now a post-referendum clear majority for Leave," he said."

Why has a Referendum changed these people's minds? do the facts no longer matter more than appealing to a tiny majority in a non legally binding opinion Poll?
Sorry folks, but there isn't any hope to be had from the MP's.
The self serving lot are too keen on keeping their jobs to do the obvious and right thing, turncoats describes them completely and to hell with the consequences.
Brexit is still very definitely GO
No one is going to come riding over the hill in shining armour to the rescue.
The Turkeys will have their Christmas.
Stuffing anyone? Actually that should be "Stuffing Everyone"

But,it may not be a suicidal Brexit now. Parliament can argue that it respects the leave vote but put conditions on Leave. It was part of the Tory election manifesto that we would stay in the single market and many sectors of industry are asking for access to best people,access to farm workers,access to passporting.
May and Davis will have to negotiate 'the best exit deal for the UK',but they cannot in isolation decide what that deal is,they have to present the deal to parliament and parliament will not reject Brexit but they may reject the terms of Brexit.
It will be interesting if they can achieve Boris's claim that the EU are going to let us have 'our cake and eat it'.....that is we are going to have full access to the single market and control of the movement of people,that will stretch their negotiating skills,hehe.
Similarly the House of Lords can also introduce amendments.
This could all take a lot of time,years maybe,it will inevitably throw out May's stated deadline of March 31,after that there has to be a majority vote in the EU on the terms it will let us leave,going by the Canada deal that could also take years.
By then we will all be asking who was Nigel ??????....forgotten his name,you remember the loud mouth guy,always had a pint and fag in hand,strange party name something like UPIP
KudosDave

 

[derf]

This remark by Kinnock is one of the reasons I think Brexit will, unfortunately still go ahead
"
But Mr Kinnock accused Mr Raab and Mrs May of being "scared" of MPs.

"There was a pre-referendum majority for Remain in the House of Commons, there is now a post-referendum clear majority for Leave," he said."

Why has a Referendum changed these people's minds? do the facts no longer matter more than appealing to a tiny majority in a non legally binding opinion Poll?
Sorry folks, but there isn't any hope to be had from the MP's.
The self serving lot are too keen on keeping their jobs to do the obvious and right thing, turncoats describes them completely and to hell with the consequences.
Brexit is still very definitely GO
No one is going to come riding over the hill in shining armour to the rescue.
The Turkeys will have their Christmas.
Stuffing anyone? Actually that should be "Stuffing Everyone"

no, but at the risk if repeating what has been said, the MP's positions wont be clear (i.e. pro or anti hard brexit in the populist Theresa doing anything to make her own position safe sense). parliament and the lords will have a very long series of debates from which a much more nuanced brexit will result. but I half agree with what you say in the sense that I think the underpinnings of brexit - the misguided anger of much of the electorate, and racism - will remain unresolved in the absence of a catastrophic cleaning of the wound with a good catastrophic financial meltdown.

 

[Kudoscycles]

At the moment, Article 50 allows an EU Member State to secede from the Union by giving two years notice to the relevant authorities.

However, as from March 31st 2017 – a date just five months away next weekend – Article 50 will be subject to the dreaded Qualified Majority Vote (QMV)…that is to say, we will have to persuade a total of 14 EU Member States to support our decision to leave.

No hurry then Theresa,and only 14 to support your decision to leave,even today Merkel is saying she is going to make it difficult for us to leave,then there is the V4,Spain/Italy and Greece are not keen.
In fact who would vote us out?...the French maybe so that Paris can steal our finance traffic but Hollande will give us hell.
I wonder whether the House of Lords are familiar with this date?
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

My point is very simple as I have said many times, I really don't care as much about the financial loss, as the social loss of not being part of an organisation that has a future rather than this tragi-comic Transylvanian style backwater that this nation is morphing into.
It will take longer than my remaining years for common sense to bring people to the stunningly obvious conclusion that this was, is and always will be a retrogade step of huge and significant magnitude.
And to rejoin Europe where we belong.
As Churchill would say
We will descend into an abyss made darker and more protracted by the lights of perverted propaganda.

 

[oldtom]

The self serving lot are too keen on keeping their jobs to do the obvious and right thing, turncoats describes them completely and to hell with the consequences.
Brexit is still very definitely GO

Are you trying to tell me these elected public servants have no moral commitment to their constituents and to the nation as a whole? I'm shocked! Surely we can rely on these MPs to act in the best interests of the UK, both now and in the future, regardless of personal preference?

Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

On June 23, there was a moment of power for a number of people who felt they were losing out and ignored by the establishment,they had the opportunity to a protest vote.
Since that date I have seen our country being taken towards suicidal economic vandalism,I haven't seen anything that would satisfy the Leave voters except a feeling that they won,their moment of opportunity to stick it up the successful elements of our country.
On November 3 the courts gave us,the successful businesses of our country,an opportunity to ensure that we are also listened to. Instead of Theresa May acting like a dictator, MP's will now have the opportunity to ensure that someone is putting the on the brakes before we fall headlong over a cliff.
There is now some balance in the country,Theresa May has to satisfy parliament that she is also acting for the benefit of everyone in the UK,not just the 52% but also the 48%... We and parliament will now get sight of what Brexit really means to May and our elected MP's voting on it.
My opinion is that November 3 result was more democratic than the lies infused vote on June 23.
Notice how May has not been on TV today,she had no plan for Brexit,this will become increasingly obvious as she makes her submissions to parliament,she and Davis now have a lot of work to do,no more waffling,she doesn't know where to go now.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

yes, you are correct on this point.
Mrs May appointed herself as the supreme monarch in this instance without the necessary votes. The Court is right to deny her motion, basically saying that our laws are above her. As Ms Miller said, it's a point of procedure. Parliament's job is to make the right choices for the people. If parliament thinks that people made a mistake, it can and must ask the people to vote again.

I
Trex....I think a second referendum would be a good idea,the question more linked to what the country wants not about Cameron getting out of a politically divided Tory.
Some are suggesting that a GE would be a good idea,but that would be all encompassing,we now need a specific vote based upon what we know now.
Anyway,don't you need a majority vote to have a GE inside the fixed term?
KudosDave

 

[trex]

it's not easy to call an early general election (before May 2020). Mrs May will either need the consent of two third of MPs or a vote of no confidence and Mr Corbyn cannot form one either.

 

[trex]

Are brexiters really patriotic? are remainers un-patriotic?

 

[anotherkiwi]

At the moment, Article 50 allows an EU Member State to secede from the Union by giving two years notice to the relevant authorities.

However, as from March 31st 2017 – a date just five months away next weekend – Article 50 will be subject to the dreaded Qualified Majority Vote (QMV)…that is to say, we will have to persuade a total of 14 EU Member States to support our decision to leave.

No hurry then Theresa,and only 14 to support your decision to leave,even today Merkel is saying she is going to make it difficult for us to leave,then there is the V4,Spain/Italy and Greece are not keen.
In fact who would vote us out?...the French maybe so that Paris can steal our finance traffic but Hollande will give us hell.
I wonder whether the House of Lords are familiar with this date?
KudosDave

Hollande is an incompetent penguin who doesn't know his ... from a hole in the ground. He is history of the two line in the history books variety "was president from xxx to xxx, most unpopular president of the V th republic..." In brief a nobody.

EDIT: Damn I staring to sound like Tilson...

 

[oldgroaner]

Are you trying to tell me these elected public servants have no moral commitment to their constituents and to the nation as a whole? I'm shocked! Surely we can rely on these MPs to act in the best interests of the UK, both now and in the future, regardless of personal preference?

Tom

If they do it will be the first time in the history of parliament[emoji1]

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[oldgroaner]

Are brexiters really patriotic? are remainers un-patriotic?

No sounds good to me[emoji1]

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[oldgroaner]

Hollande is an incompetent penguin who doesn't know his ... from a hole in the ground. He is history of the two line in the history books variety "was president from xxx to xxx, most unpopular president of the V th republic..." In brief a nobody.

EDIT: Damn I staring to sound like Tilson...

You'll be fancying little Scottish ladies next![emoji1]

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[Kudoscycles]

One of May's commandments 'I am not going to give a running commentary on Brexit' so as to avoid showing our cards to the EU.
By now the EU know exactly what are our wants,but May doesn't know how to ask for them,
I think the reason that she is appealing today's legal challenge is that gives her another month to try and draft something that she can put to parliament,a lady on Question Time asked Javid what did the government prioritise in Brexit negotiations,he didn't have a clue how to answer....
We all know what Leavers wanted and so does the EU......
Stay in the single market
Control of immigration
Ability to make our own laws
Do trade agreements with non EU countries
There, why can't May talk to parliament about these and ask priorities?
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

It really is time that the rabid right wing press is reined in.
The Mail this morning
"Enemies of the people: Fury over 'out of touch' judges who defied 17.4m Brexit voters and could trigger constitutional crisis "

A paper that describes High Court judges as "Enemies of the People" has become one itself and shut be shut down.

 

[tillson]

A paper that describes High Court judges as "Enemies of the People" has become one itself and shut be shut down.

This is always the solution with the left. If something or someone disagrees with their point of view they immediately try to gag, shut down, smear or discredit the source.

Why not instead promote left wing ideas and policies in such a way that they are attractive to people? That way there would be no need to delete everything which stands in the way.

The plain truth is that left wing politics is deeply unpopular in the UK. It reeks of hypocrisy and has become a trendy plaything for a few wealthy or famous people. A sort of self gratifying feel good hobby. There are some exceptions and I would place Jeremy Corbin in that category.

Here is what the then Prime Minister told the British people:

"If the Conservatives win the next election we will seek to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the EU and then give the British people the "simple choice" by the end of 2017 between staying in the EU under those terms or leaving the EU. "

This is what the government of the U.K. were elected on. A simple choice, stay or leave. Not to "advise us on" or "ask MPs to vote upon".

The Cabinet Office also issued a statement saying that the government would deliver the choice of the people.

As we know, the renegotiation has taken place, the terms of that renegotiation have been considered and the majority of people have voted to leave the EU. Now we have three unelected people who are totally unknown to the majority of voters on both sides apparently having more influence than teens of millions of voters.

If left wing politics is to ever be taken seriously and win support it needs to do better than this. All that is being achieved at the moment is to infuriate and alienate people. The left is doing more to promote right wing politics than I can ever remember. As will be proven in future elections.

How about this for an idea OG. Why not fit polling booths with spy cameras to monitor how people vote. If they don't vote how you would like them to, you can have them "removed" to somewhere "for their own good." That is the only way that left wing politics will ever prevail, so thank goodness it never will.