Brexit, for once some facts.

[oyster]

This won't help...Doing the rounds again …...from 2016

Boris Johnson: The EU wants a superstate, just as Hitler did

The European Union is pursuing a similar goal to Hitler in trying to create a powerful superstate, Boris Johnson says.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Isn't the accusation that remainers always end up discussing WWII?

 

[flecc]

How many children do we know, or think we know, about?

I doubt anyone knows, I certainly don't. The rumour is enough. It's the accusation that does the damage, especially when accompanied by quotes and recordings of his misogynistic statements and the well publicised overheard row with his current girl friend.

It gives the impression that he is contemptuous of women, just using them.

All this would be meaningless if applied to most men, but it doesn't sit well with an MP, especially a prime minister.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Totally agree with sentiments of 50 over last few pages...
But, the point I dont understand is the lack of responsibility held towards the opposition at time of last GE.
Yes, we, d had the ref result, which for nearly all of us was both a massive surprise and a wake up call.
I expected election to be fought predominantly on leaving/remaining. Unfortunately for us all the opposition chose to have leave in their manifesto, leaving the election to be fought on things labour were never going to win on. Voters were given choice of leaving with May or Corbyn, or staying with Cable. Inevitably Tories scraped in and then used election to justify with even more conviction electorate wanted to leave, which simply wasnt the case even back then.
Its been a complete breakdown of democracy caused, IMO, by Labour. Yes, we knew some Tories (ERG) really wanted to leave but Labour and specifically Corbyn have played into Tory extremist hands by
A) not actually opposing anything.
B) sitting on fence trying to placate both sides but actually representing neither.
Just imagine where we would now be had Labour had a more moderate leader and represented "remain" at last GE.
We would have found out exactly what voters think of leaving/remaining and I strongly suspect a labour government rescinding art 50 by now.
Its been a perfect Storm of wrong people leading at wrong time. Without Corbyn, BJ would never have made PM.

 

[oldgroaner]

Totally agree with sentiments of 50 over last few pages...
But, the point I dont understand is the lack of responsibility held towards the opposition at time of last GE.
Yes, we, d had the ref result, which for nearly all of us was both a massive surprise and a wake up call.
I expected election to be fought predominantly on leaving/remaining. Unfortunately for us all the opposition chose to have leave in their manifesto, leaving the election to be fought on things labour were never going to win on. Voters were given choice of leaving with May or Corbyn, or staying with Cable. Inevitably Tories scraped in and then used election to justify with even more conviction electorate wanted to leave, which simply wasnt the case even back then.
Its been a complete breakdown of democracy caused, IMO, by Labour. Yes, we knew some Tories (ERG) really wanted to leave but Labour and specifically Corbyn have played into Tory extremist hands by
A) not actually opposing anything.
B) sitting on fence trying to placate both sides but actually representing neither.
Just imagine where we would now be had Labour had a more moderate leader and represented "remain" at last GE.
We would have found out exactly what voters think of leaving/remaining and I strongly suspect a labour government rescinding art 50 by now.
Its been a perfect Storm of wrong people leading at wrong time. Without Corbyn, BJ would never have made PM.

But, the point I don't understand is the lack of responsibility held towards those who promoted Leave and broke the law in the process

 

[Nev]

Just imagine where we would now be had Labour had a more moderate leader and represented "remain" at last GE.
We would have found out exactly what voters think of leaving/remaining and I strongly suspect a labour government rescinding art 50 by now.
Its been a perfect Storm of wrong people leading at wrong time. Without Corbyn, BJ would never have made PM.

Absolutely, at perhaps the most important time for the UK since WW2 we needed good leaders and in TM and JC we have probably had the two worst. We are now stuck with someone who is a proven liar, a cheat, a con man and someone who I think is capable of anything to remain in power.

Even committed leavers can't be happy with the way things are turning out. Very high probability we are going to be in a technical recession when the next quarter growth rate figures come out, mostly down to Brexit.

 

[Woosh]

Without Corbyn, BJ would never have made PM.

without Corbyn, we may not even leave. or left on a soft brexit.

 

[flecc]

Its been a perfect Storm of wrong people leading at wrong time. Without Corbyn, BJ would never have made PM.

I'd have given an unqualified "Agree" to your post, but for the last short sentence. A moderate Remainer Labour leader would have made it even more certain that the Tories would field Johnson as PM to harvest the Leave vote in a GE.
.

 

[Woosh]

But, the point I don't understand is the lack of responsibility held towards those who promoted Leave and broke the law in the process

the vast majority of those who voted for leave did not break any law nor associated with those who did in any way.
People like Cummings think of themselves as warriors, normal laws don't apply.

 

[Danidl]

the vast majority of those who voted for leave did not break any law nor associated with those who did in any way.
People like Cummings think of themselves as warriors, normal laws don't apply.

Of course the vast vast majority of Leave voters are and were law abiding citizens,who did not break any election laws. That was not in question.

 

[oyster]

Perhaps advisers and others in senior positions should have to declare all receipts of public funds? In public, not just to some behind the scenes register.

Brexit enforcer Cummings’ farm took €235,000 in EU handouts
Boris Johnson aide, a strident critic of Brussels, is accused of hypocrisy over payments
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/10/dominic-cummings-owns-farm-got-eu-subsidy

 

[50Hertz]

Totally agree with sentiments of 50 over last few pages...
But, the point I dont understand is the lack of responsibility held towards the opposition at time of last GE.
Yes, we, d had the ref result, which for nearly all of us was both a massive surprise and a wake up call.
I expected election to be fought predominantly on leaving/remaining. Unfortunately for us all the opposition chose to have leave in their manifesto, leaving the election to be fought on things labour were never going to win on. Voters were given choice of leaving with May or Corbyn, or staying with Cable. Inevitably Tories scraped in and then used election to justify with even more conviction electorate wanted to leave, which simply wasnt the case even back then.
Its been a complete breakdown of democracy caused, IMO, by Labour. Yes, we knew some Tories (ERG) really wanted to leave but Labour and specifically Corbyn have played into Tory extremist hands by
A) not actually opposing anything.
B) sitting on fence trying to placate both sides but actually representing neither.
Just imagine where we would now be had Labour had a more moderate leader and represented "remain" at last GE.
We would have found out exactly what voters think of leaving/remaining and I strongly suspect a labour government rescinding art 50 by now.
Its been a perfect Storm of wrong people leading at wrong time. Without Corbyn, BJ would never have made PM.

The seeds of this mess were sown in the run up to the referendum. Let’s be generous and say the Leave side gave out information in good faith, which has now turned out to be inaccurate. Remain didn’t do a very good job of selling the benefits of the EU.

To a large extent, the above doesn’t matter now. What matters is that we don’t crash out of the EU on the basis of stubbornness, wanting to save face and an inability to admit that we got it wrong. It’s as plain as day now that a hard Brexit is going to severely set the country back and there are no benefits to leaving.

 

[Woosh]

Of course the vast vast majority of Leave voters are and were law abiding citizens,who did not break any election laws. That was not in question.

then their vote is valid until the question is asked again.

 

[oldgroaner]

the vast majority of those who voted for leave did not break any law nor associated with those who did in any way.
People like Cummings think of themselves as warriors, normal laws don't apply.

No one said they did, so don't make things up!
Laws apply to everyone otherwise they aren't laws

 

[Woosh]

No one said they did, so don't make things up!
Laws apply to everyone otherwise they aren't laws

you implied that the vote was not valid because electoral laws were broken by leave promoters.

 

[flecc]

Remain didn’t do a very good job of selling the benefits of the EU.

Telling an electorate that what they've already got is best can never convince, no matter how presented. It's in the nature of electorates that they are never satisfied.

The Remain campaign had an impossible job, only able to depend on complacency and fear of change.
.

 

[Woosh]

It's in the nature of electorates that they are never satisfied.

then you have to let them experience brexit.

 

[oyster]

then you have to let them experience brexit.

Which would be fine if it were, what it sounds like, a theme park. "Brexit Experience" - with roller coasters, death-defying sterling plunges, no freedom to come and go as you please, ...

 

[oldgroaner]

you implied that the vote was not valid because electoral laws were broken by leave promoters.

Not the vote, the referendum was invalidated, by law breaking, I agree I should have made myself more clear on that.
Mind you I thought this comment was obviously directed at the leave campaign..

"But, the point I don't understand is the lack of responsibility held towards those who promoted Leave and broke the law in the process "

Note the caveat
"and broke the law in the process"

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Guardian
"
Brexit enforcer Cummings’ farm took €235,000 in EU handouts
Boris Johnson aide, a strident critic of Brussels, is accused of hypocrisy over payments

NATURALLY

 

[Woosh]

Not the vote, the referendum was invalidated, by law breaking, I agree I should have made myself more clear on that.
Mind you I thought this comment was obviously directed at the leave campaign..

"But, the point I don't understand is the lack of responsibility held towards those who promoted Leave and broke the law in the process "

Note the caveat
"and broke the law in the process"

the referendum is advisory, the real battle is who or which party governs this country.
When TM called the GE in 2017, the dice was cast. Both Labour and Tory were pro brexit.
2 years later, a lot myths have been shown up, remain leads in polls. The only way to stop or soften brexit is to remove the tory from power and replace it with a temporary government.
Unfortunately, that unity government can only happen with Labour's wholehearted support. That means JC has to be with it.
JC is not good enough to lead a unity government.