Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

I agree with the sentiment of this post. I had a similar feeling last week, but I'm afraid most of the brexiters on this forum will heartily disagree with it. The immigration issue is about alleged benefit seeking immigrants coming to the UK to not work, right (as if the natives of the UK are productive workers)? How about instead of selective immigration throwing out all the UK citizens that should but do not work? We could send them to a nice empty white continent (like Antarctica) where they wont meet any immigrants and have lots of white expanse to stare at when they're feeling xenophobic and concerned about their precious perceived Anglo Saxon heritage

All great fun, I'm sure but a better plan would be to generate genuine jobs for these people to do before freezing them to death (or starving them for that matter)
Remember that the Benefits situation was originally forced on a population that wanted to work when the country de-industrialised, and benefits were simply a means of keeping them docile and malleable, in other words buying social peace.
Like any drug addiction, they need to be weaned off them with something better to motivate them rather than just fear.

 

[derf]

All great fun, I'm sure but a better plan would be to generate genuine jobs for these people to do before freezing them to death (or starving them for that matter)
Remember that the Benefits situation was originally forced on a population that wanted to work when the country de-industrialised, and benefits were simply a means of keeping them docile and malleable, in other words buying social peace.
Like any drug addiction, they need to be weaned off them with something better to motivate them rather than just fear.

I agree, specially in terms of zero hour contracts and a uk society increasingly conned by Tories into a ever greater divide between many working poor and a corporate/political cabal feeding them horse manure about being in it together while screwing the daylights out of them. however, while fuming away about this, like most labour supporters, I was as many others struck by the xenophobic uninformed reactionary impossibly stupid arrogant thing that is brexit. evidently a large percentage of the disenfranchised in the uk have the kind of mentality and intellect of, say, Germans before WW2, or white south Africans in the 1930's. I'm sure brexit has much to do with their feeling disempowered, estranged from it must be said a sometimes aloof EU process, and due to tory policies since austerity. But if brexit is the kind of answer they come up with for this I have no sympathy with what's ahead for them.

 

[oldgroaner]

I agree, specially in terms of zero hour contracts and a uk society increasingly conned by Tories into a ever greater divide between many working poor and a corporate/political cabal feeding them horse manure about being in it together while screwing the daylights out of them. however, while fuming away about this, like most labour supporters, I was as many others struck by the xenophobic uninformed reactionary impossibly stupid arrogant thing that is brexit. evidently a large percentage of the disenfranchised in the uk have the kind of mentality and intellect of, say, Germans before WW2, or white south Africans in the 1930's. I'm sure brexit has much to do with their feeling disempowered, estranged from it must be said a sometimes aloof EU process, and due to tory policies since austerity. But if brexit is the kind of answer they come up with for this I have no sympathy with what's ahead for them.

Nevertheless they are as human as we are, and have the same needs, hopes and desires, and as the saying goes.
"For evil to triumph it just requires Good Men and Women to do nothing"
The Public have reacted in what is to them quite a rational way to despair and rage at the way they have been abused: that this rage has been diverted from the real culprits on to others by the real culprits is the problem at hand, not the people themselves.
It is well to remember they are our people not our enemies, they have reacted in haste in the manner that seemed to them the most appropriate, at the targets offered to be shot at, by a group of villains who caused their suffering in the past, and will used Brexit to remain in power to prolong it.
If and when they perceive that, they will change direction and normality will return
Ironically the "Victory" of actual Brexit may well prove to be the bitter experience that will bring about that change, hopefully it will not be too sharp a lesson,
Enough to induce a change of heart hopefully without too much sorrow and pain.
It is not the financial loss that bothers me, rather the Social consequences of giving even more power to the elite that abuse the people.

 

[derf]

Nevertheless they are as human as we are, and have the same needs, hopes and desires, and as the saying goes.
"For evil to triumph it just requires Good Men and Women to do nothing"
The Public have reacted in what is to them quite a rational way to despair and rage at the way they have been abused: that this rage has been diverted from the real culprits on to others by the real culprits is the problem at hand, not the people themselves.
It is well to remember they are our people not our enemies, they have reacted in haste in the manner that seemed to them the most appropriate, at the targets offered to be shot at, by a group of villains who caused their suffering in the past, and will used Brexit to remain in power to prolong it.
If and when they perceive that, they will change direction and normality will return
Ironically the "Victory" of actual Brexit may well prove to be the bitter experience that will bring about that change, hopefully it will not be too sharp a lesson,
Enough to induce a change of heart hopefully without too much sorrow and pain.
It is not the financial loss that bothers me, rather the Social consequences of giving even more power to the elite that abuse the people.

I largely agree. however, that's taking a very benevolent view of our fellow citizens nature/character. they may be more than abused - they may also be overentitled, selfish, quite corrupt - wanting to use a points based system to lure medics from third world hospitals, but blatantly, abusively not giving a damn when civilians drown crossing the med. the case of a specialist working in a Malta hospital who's family drowned while trying to join him comes to mind. and this - the nature/character of our fellow citizens - matter more than just in a intrinsic sense. brexit for me and many others I believe has been a glimpse of what's below the surface in the uk, culturally. I feel about it the way I feel about Hungary, ito Luxembourg saying it should be expelled from the eu for the way it treats refugees. I also worry more about the social consequences, but also in terms of suddenly waking up to a much more racist, bigoted, selfish narcissistic world. if the uk fudges things and do not make a complete exit because it suddenly wakes up to the economic implications of that the truth about the level of prejudice and selfishness in it wont have been dealt with.

 

[oldgroaner]

I largely agree. however, that's taking a very benevolent view of our fellow citizens nature/character. they may be more than abused - they may also be overentitled, selfish, quite corrupt - wanting to use a points based system to lure medics from third world hospitals, but blatantly, abusively not giving a damn when civilians drown crossing the med. the case of a specialist working in a Malta hospital who's family drowned while trying to join him comes to mind. and this - the nature/character of our fellow citizens - matter more than just in a intrinsic sense. brexit for me and many others I believe has been a glimpse of what's below the surface in the uk, culturally. I feel about it the way I feel about Hungary, ito Luxembourg saying it should be expelled from the eu for the way it treats refugees. I also worry more about the social consequences, but also in terms of suddenly waking up to a much more racist, bigoted, selfish narcissistic world. if the uk fudges things and do not make a complete exit because it suddenly wakes up to the economic implications of that the truth about the level of prejudice and selfishness in it wont have been dealt with.

If you refer back to the DNA analysis of the average UK citizen, they are really no different from the rest of people in Europe, no better and no worse, it is the Ethical Environment they live in that corrupts their attitudes, and only when that is changed will what seem uniquely British characteristics prove to be nothing of the sort.
We have been played like puppets for profit for so many years that unnatural attitudes have become the norm, and lies treated as fundamental truths.

 

[derf]

If you refer back to the DNA analysis of the average UK citizen, they are really no different from the rest of people in Europe, no better and no worse, it is the Ethical Environment they live in that corrupts their attitudes, and only when that is changed will what seem uniquely British characteristics prove to be nothing of the sort.
We have been played like puppets for profit for so many years that unnatural attitudes have become the norm, and lies treated as fundamental truths.

I'm sure they're not different from eu citizens or, probably, trump supporters in the nature stakes. but I think there may be more to it than the ethical environment corrupting their attitudes, in the nurture sense. I think there may be a degree of "consensual crime" involved. if one thinks about the way some on this forum has described not caring about refugees dying, at all, for example, this may even be practically, legally true.
in one sense i largely agree with what you say, much the way the treaty of Versailles and humiliation of Germany was say the main trigger for the rise of fascism, environmentally. But I'm not sure a change in ethical environment will be enough. after years of prosperity and new labour the hiccup of the 2008 crisis and a tory government/austerity brought brexit to the surface. one has to wonder where all that xenophobia and narcissism came from, was it always there? new labour, repellent as it was, didn't sow the seeds for it.

 

[oldgroaner]

I'm sure they're not different from eu citizens or, probably, trump supporters in the nature stakes. but I think there may be more to it than the ethical environment corrupting their attitudes, in the nurture sense. I think there may be a degree of "consensual crime" involved. if one thinks about the way some on this forum has described not caring about refugees dying, at all, for example, this may even be practically, legally true.
in one sense i largely agree with what you say, much the way the treaty of Versailles and humiliation of Germany was say the main trigger for the rise of fascism, environmentally. But I'm not sure a change in ethical environment will be enough. after years of prosperity and new labour the hiccup of the 2008 crisis and a tory government/austerity brought brexit to the surface. one has to wonder where all that xenophobia and narcissism came from, was it always there? new labour, repellent as it was, didn't sow the seeds for it.

Xenophobia is a symptom of fear, and the responsibility for that can be laid against the foreign policy of this country waging wars of aggression for commercial gain under the guise of them being allegedly with good intentions.
Blair has perhaps the biggest bill for blood on his hands but he is not alone, Cameron has been no better.
This began a feedback process with the rise of terrorists and of course refugees which has been manna from heaven to the establishment propagandists who have managed to portray the pin prick attacks of terrorists as if the were the same scale of threat as the nightly attentions of the Luftwaffe were.
In the same way migrants could be demonised as being simply parasites on the state, in the knowledge that the average person would never check the facts as to what the incomers circumstances would actually be.
And of course who do the propagandists blame? our own actions? of course not! it's all the fault of the EU according to them.
In simple terms; Fear is always there, and the chosen implement of control the Elite use, enhance and inflame to control the Plebs

 

[derf]

Xenophobia is a symptom of fear, and the responsibility for that can be laid against the foreign policy of this country waging wars of aggression for commercial gain under the guise of them being allegedly with good intentions.
Blair has perhaps the biggest bill for blood on his hands but he is not alone, Cameron has been no better.
This began a feedback process with the rise of terrorists and of course refugees which has been manna from heaven to the establishment propagandists who have managed to portray the pin prick attacks of terrorists as if the were the same scale of threat as the nightly attentions of the Luftwaffe were.
In the same way migrants could be demonised as being simply parasites on the state, in the knowledge that the average person would never check the facts as to what the incomers circumstances would actually be.
And of course who do the propagandists blame? our own actions? of course not! it's all the fault of the EU according to them.
In simple terms; Fear is always there, and the chosen implement of control the Elite use, enhance and inflame to control the Plebs

I agree with this. where we disagree is I think the degree to which the public is controlled through misinformation versus knowing participants in what happens. what comes to mind is the house price bubble, low interest rates and Gordon browns raid on pensions. everybody knows property is a lucrative investment but also that piling into it and renting it prices the young out of the market, and is unsustainable, but we do it. this may be too complex an example. It's rather late and this isn't very coherent, but I don't believe xenophobia can be explained on the basis of fear alone. The narrative the likes of Bush,bush's father or Blair and Cameron sold were bought by a public who either knew saddam, for example, started life as a cia proxy, or should have known. same with the eu and brexit, I saw much greed and wanting to wash their collective hands off responsibility for the world and fellow humans in the referendum. trump may appeal to the lowest instincts in a segment of the American electorate, but the other side of that coin is the greedy short sighted racists with selfish commercial interests who want a trump to further their interests.
if one provided an ethical environment my hunch is that the electorate may well yet pull another brexit out of the hat at a future date, that's one lesson I took from the referendum - it involved a Britain and its citizens who received enormously much from the eu and had the good life and chose to throw it all away for the way that good life fuelled self interest rather than altruism.

 

[oldgroaner]

I agree with this. where we disagree is I think the degree to which the public is controlled through misinformation versus knowing participants in what happens. what comes to mind is the house price bubble, low interest rates and Gordon browns raid on pensions. everybody knows property is a lucrative investment but also that piling into it and renting it prices the young out of the market, and is unsustainable, but we do it. this may be too complex an example. It's rather late and this isn't very coherent, but I don't believe xenophobia can be explained on the basis of fear alone. The narrative the likes of Bush,bush's father or Blair and Cameron sold were bought by a public who either knew saddam, for example, started life as a cia proxy, or should have known. same with the eu and brexit, I saw much greed and wanting to wash their collective hands off responsibility for the world and fellow humans in the referendum. trump may appeal to the lowest instincts in a segment of the American electorate, but the other side of that coin is the greedy short sighted racists with selfish commercial interests who want a trump to further their interests.
if one provided an ethical environment my hunch is that the electorate may well yet pull another brexit out of the hat at a future date, that's one lesson I took from the referendum - it involved a Britain and its citizens who received enormously much from the eu and had the good life and chose to throw it all away for the way that good life fuelled self interest rather than altruism.

Since the same personal weaknesses exist in all human beings, singling out the inhabitants of this group of islands as specifically being "worse* than any other is unsupportable because of the Multicultural nature of the people here who represents almost all the races on the planet,
Greed and selfishness are not noticeably different between the races present, and colour of skin not significant as the attitude is not ethnic in nature, it really is a case of all races are in it together.
The same can and has applied to other nations planet wide, it is a fault of human nature that is universally present everywhere, the difference is how well the people are being encouraged and induced to give in to baser instincts.
Those who control of the attitude of the people are the villains of the piece.

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Telegraph this morning
"New Ukip leader Diane James says Vladimir Putin is one of her heroes "
Naturally!

 

[oldgroaner]

And from the Express
We CANNOT cope' Theresa May heads to New York to demand action from UN on migrant crisis
THERESA May will today demand urgent global action to tackle the European migrant crisis following intensifying fears that the EU cannot cope with the mass influx.

Hang on a minute, aren't we coming out out of the EU because they were the cause of the problem and we could solve it by "taking back control?"

Well I have a suggestion
Stop bombing people in other countries, it's quite simple really, and get others to do the same.

 

[oldgroaner]

And now "Create news from nothing and stir up hatred from the Express"
"
EU plot to SUE Britain for striking trade deals with other nations before Brexit
BRITAIN could be sued for millions by disgruntled EU states if it begins negotiating trade deals with other countries before leaving the European Union, leaked papers reveal. "

Why shouldn't they sue? we agreed to the rules and should abide by them, and of course it provoked the expected response from the morons.
Though these days it makes you wonder whether there are real people writing these so called reader comments.
Another blatant attempt to make it harder to negotiate a sensible outcome with the EU over Brexit by a paper that seems to be a Putin puppet..

 

[anotherkiwi]

Wait a bit!

UKIP leader admires Putin
Tilson on vacation in Croatia with Russian billionaires...

The pieces of the puzzle fall into place!

Orchestra:
[Dramatic chord]

Captain Hairy Seagoon reporting for duty as instructed, sir. I'm ready to die for the flag, bleed for my country, suffer great sufferings, [dramatically] and all for England.

 

[anotherkiwi]

With apologies to my heroes, but secretly I am sure they understand...

Grytpype:
This is Operation Explodable Boot. You will make your way to EU headquarters in Brussels. Once there you will contact our British agent X.

Seagoon:
X? How do you spell it?

Grytpype:
F A R A G E

Seagoon:
Thank you. How do I contact him?

Grytpype:
By whistling a highly skilled mysterious secret tune. The moment he hears it he'll hand you a sealed envelope, heavily sealed.

Seagoon:
But the secret tune?

Grytpype:
It goes like this: [whistles the Hungarian Rhapsody]

Seagoon:
Wait! That's the Hungarian Rhapsody. What's secret about that?

Grytpype:
Fool! Didn't you notice? I was whistling it in English!

Seagoon:
I know, but there are thousands of Hungarians who can whistle in English fluently.

Grytpype:
How dare they!

Seagoon:
In any case, I can't whistle.

...

Ah! The happy memories of those evenings by the fire listening to the radio (in colour!) with my parents...

 

[oldgroaner]

With apologies to my heroes, but secretly I am sure they understand...

Grytpype:
This is Operation Explodable Boot. You will make your way to EU headquarters in Brussels. Once there you will contact our British agent X.

Seagoon:
X? How do you spell it?

Grytpype:
F A R A G E

Seagoon:
Thank you. How do I contact him?

Grytpype:
By whistling a highly skilled mysterious secret tune. The moment he hears it he'll hand you a sealed envelope, heavily sealed.

Seagoon:
But the secret tune?

Grytpype:
It goes like this: [whistles the Hungarian Rhapsody]

Seagoon:
Wait! That's the Hungarian Rhapsody. What's secret about that?

Grytpype:
Fool! Didn't you notice? I was whistling it in English!

Seagoon:
I know, but there are thousands of Hungarians who can whistle in English fluently.

Grytpype:
How dare they!

Seagoon:
In any case, I can't whistle.

...

Ah! The happy memories of those evenings by the fire listening to the radio (in colour!) with my parents...

Indeed..And Grytpype could well be the prototype of Boris with his famous line
"Have this photograph of a shilling, lad and there's more where that came from."
He even had a version of Gove too!
"My well oiled friend and I....steady Moriarty!!"
And a very British negotiation technique..
"Bang! Bang!"
Blows smoke from Revolver and looks around the Leaving the EU negotiations meeting.
"Are there any more objections?"

BTW we were too poor and working class to have colour and listened in Fading Black and White on a Steam Radio

 

[derf]

Since the same personal weaknesses exist in all human beings, singling out the inhabitants of this group of islands as specifically being "worse* than any other is unsupportable because of the Multicultural nature of the people here who represents almost all the races on the planet,
Greed and selfishness are not noticeably different between the races present, and colour of skin not significant as the attitude is not ethnic in nature, it really is a case of all races are in it together.
The same can and has applied to other nations planet wide, it is a fault of human nature that is universally present everywhere, the difference is how well the people are being encouraged and induced to give in to baser instincts.
Those who control of the attitude of the people are the villains of the piece.

I'm not singling out the inhabitants of this group of islands (though I have a hunch living on islands can promote insular views). I'm sure the greed and selfishness her isn't different form anywhere else. I agree with the control of the attitude by the psychopaths in charge being a big part of the puzzle. I can also really sympathise with the view that an ethical environment may bring out the best in people. Carl Rogers and other humanists described it as a kind of uterus for the personality, and a younger me would go with that as a basic principle. But you've got to admit that the referendum contradicts that, flatly. Give people all the benefits of EU membership and the good life and what do you get? A toad faced bigoted populist and popular Farage. It brings to mind Lord of the Flies. one can have a tropical island and childhood as ideal ingredients and come out with murder instead of swallows and amazons.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Or what about a migrant exchange programme. The U.K. Could accept two new migrants to live and work in the UK if we could export one piece of our garbage in exchange.

I think that already exists... it's called the east cost of Spain isn't it?

 

[oldgroaner]

I'm not singling out the inhabitants of this group of islands (though I have a hunch living on islands can promote insular views). I'm sure the greed and selfishness her isn't different form anywhere else. I agree with the control of the attitude by the psychopaths in charge being a big part of the puzzle. I can also really sympathise with the view that an ethical environment may bring out the best in people. Carl Rogers and other humanists described it as a kind of uterus for the personality, and a younger me would go with that as a basic principle. But you've got to admit that the referendum contradicts that, flatly. Give people all the benefits of EU membership and the good life and what do you get? A toad faced bigoted populist and popular Farage. It brings to mind Lord of the Flies. one can have a tropical island and childhood as ideal ingredients and come out with murder instead of swallows and amazons.

I suspect that what has made the difference here is that the nation is indeed a "Captive Audience" insulated on it's islands and not exposed to much in the way of external information that hasn't been filtered first through the thought police effect of the Press and Parliament, both of which operate above and beyond any interest in the public welfare.
After all I cannot recall a single case of any action taken by the EU being lauded by Parliament or the press, quite an extraordinary achievement, as is the fact that the only feedback we ever get from the EU MEP's is when Farage is mouthing off like the idiot he is, and somehow this gets lauded as being statesman like, and videos proudly posted for all to see.
Uncanny that of the 73 UK MEP's we never hear or see of the other 72 in action.
Why have none of them objected to this?
That represents suppression of information on a massive and scandalous scale, and passes unremarked.
All reporting on the EU is by unspoken agreement universally negative, or simply ignored.
In that respect there is indeed a problem.
Remember too that the "Ace in the hole" for the leave campaign was to depict this as a "Patriotic Campaign" and that alone is hard for the less well mentally endowed among the population to resist, as to do so exposes them to the disapproval of others, and they don't really know by whom, or to what extent.
It is an insidious technique which is all too effective, as Mock Patriotism was and always will be the refuge of Scoundrels.
Added to that, his Nation is Governed and directed using the method used for growing mushrooms
Sow the spores in compost
Keep them in the dark and wet
And feed them.... I think you can guess the rest!

 

[tillson]

I suspect that what has made the difference here is that the nation is indeed a "Captive Audience" insulated on it's islands and not exposed to much in the way of external information that hasn't been filtered first through the thought police effect of the Press and Parliament, both of which operate above and beyond any interest in the public welfare.
After all I cannot recall a single case of any action taken by the EU being lauded by Parliament or the press, quite an extraordinary achievement, as is the fact that the only feedback we ever get from the EU MEP's is when Farage is mouthing off like the idiot he is, and somehow this gets lauded as being statesman like, and videos proudly posted for all to see.
Uncanny that of the 73 UK MEP's we never hear or see of the other 72 in action.
Why have none of them objected to this?
That represents suppression of information on a massive and scandalous scale, and passes unremarked.
All reporting on the EU is by unspoken agreement universally negative, or simply ignored.
In that respect there is indeed a problem.
Remember too that the "Ace in the hole" for the leave campaign was to depict this as a "Patriotic Campaign" and that alone is hard for the less well mentally endowed among the population to resist, as to do so exposes them to the disapproval of others, and they don't really know by whom, or to what extent.
It is an insidious technique which is all too effective, as Mock Patriotism was and always will be the refuge of Scoundrels.
Added to that, his Nation is Governed and directed using the method used for growing mushrooms
Sow the spores in compost
Keep them in the dark and wet
And feed them.... I think you can guess the rest!

What is there not to love about this.

 

[tillson]

I read on the news that Merkel has taken a pounding in an election in Berlin. Meanwhile AfD grows in strength.

There is a message coming through right across the EU, but of course, no one is listening to it.