Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldtom]

I'm not clear what flexibility we will gain in a very much one way dumping agreeement with the Far East

Well, let's see: if they were to suddenly demand lots of Scotch pies and Cornish pasties, real English willow cricket bats, Bovril, model London buses and plastic 'Big Bens', that could make a huge difference to our balance of payments probleml

Let's not forget, JCB continue to sell their diggers and other big stuff and the TPP nations might see their way to buying a couple or three more of them every decade or so - that would really help the dividends paid out to their shareholders improve the lot of all the British people.

Yep, the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that it could work well…….for everyone except the people of the UK!

For some odd reason, I'm reminded of the words of the late, great Prime Minister, Harold MacMillan, who once stated, '"Let us be frank about it: most of our people have never had it so good", to which my father retorted, 'What planet is he on?' That was 1957 and rationing had ended less than a handful of years before, although I had still never seen a real pineapple, but it sure didn't feel like we were any better off. Of course, 'Supermac' was probably talking about the elite when he mentioned 'our people', rather than the plebs working five and a half or six days a week, struggling to make ends meet!

The tories have been ruining the country unopposed for most of the years since then and if this TPP 'opportunity' is the future, I fear all is now lost and we didn't really win WW2 at all.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

The stated aim of the EU is political union. The economic union (the SM) is just a stepping stone.
BTW, no other trading bloc has a political dimension like the EU.

That is why it is the best of them all!

Tom

 

[Woosh]

That is why it is the best of them all!

52% of those voted the last time disagreed with you.
I think those of us who want a soft brexit see long term advantages in leaving.

 

[oldtom]

I think those of us who want a soft brexit see long term advantages in leaving.

That's right!……all those unspecified benefits - no guarantees but there will be sunny uplands, unicorns and fairy dust everywhere.

Incidentally, no-one voted for a soft 'Brexit'. You should remember that the PM insisted that 'Brexit means Brexit' so how can there be anything other than a complete divorce? Anything else is 'Brino' and that is not really what the idiots voted for in 2016.

Tom

 

[flecc]

And then the Tories will have to clear up the mess that Labour have made with their unrealistic policies, and be made to look the bad guys. They will be in power for 2 terms and just as things are on the up they will get voted out Labour will get in and the cycle will start again.

It's a two way street, the Tories always make the other mess of gross inequality, which is what lets Labour in with the cycle you describe. If only the Tories practiced some restraint in wealth creation for the few, that wouldn't happen and they could stay in all the time.
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[oldgroaner]

The why it is the obvious choice

The stated aim of the EU is political union. The economic union (the SM) is just a stepping stone.
BTW, no other trading bloc has a political dimension like the EU.

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[Woosh]

It's a two way street, the Tories always make the other mess of gross inequality, which is what lets Labour in with the cycle you describe. If only the Tories practiced some restraint in wealth creation for the few, that wouldn't happen and they could stay in all the time.
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as you well know, the referendum is only advisory. People voted on the idea or concept but the government of the day has to translate that to concrete proposal and treaty.
The deal that would suit most people and the economy is a soft brexit with control on immigration.

 

[oldgroaner]

And for that they need to be about equal, something we are not in any way

TPP (or CPTTP) is not about dumping or anti dumping. It's about balancing imports and exports to promote trade and productivity. Countries need stability and predictability.

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[Woosh]

And for that they need to be about equal, something we are not in any way

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no they don't, that's the benefit of associations without which large producers will crush small ones. You need barriers, small enough to keep friction to a minimum, large enough to stop the flood and that can be raised with predictability.
If you look at CP TPP, 22 countries, a sixth of the world economy, with large members like Japan, Canada and Australia, and small members like Brunei and Vietnam. Together, they can negotiate with giant countries like China and the USA.

 

[Woosh]

The why it is the obvious choice

if you want to see the US of E then yes, I agree.
I think the EU has pushed political union as far as it can for this generation.

 

[flecc]

I think the EU has pushed political union as far as it can for this generation.

Yes, the rabid nationalism caused by the mass immigration crisis has pushed back that agenda for at least thirty years.

That's very sad, but we in the West caused it with military action on the basis of an entirely mythical Arab Spring. Egypt, Libya and Bashar al Assad in Syria have taught us how foolish that was, particularly now Turkey is drifting further towards co-operation with Russia.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

if you want to see the US of E then yes, I agree.
I think the EU has pushed political union as far as it can for this generation.

I suggest that this is only true where we are concerned, and once we are out, the process will accelerate between the rest.
If anything we have hastened it
And turned friends against us.
The only beneficiary is Putin

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[Woosh]

I suggest that this is only true where we are concerned, and once we are out, the process will accelerate between the rest.
If anything we have hastened it

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The EU will pause to see how things develop.
I think the brexit deal is not only a damage limitation deal, it is also an opportunity for the EU to develop the concept of associated membership not only to suit the UK, but also EFTA countries and soon, Ukraine, Turkey and even Russia.
The EU will continue with political union, starting with common foreign and defence policies, annual budget increases and tax on e-commerce.

 

[oldtom]

it is also an opportunity for the EU to develop the concept of associated membership not only to suit the UK, but also EFTA countries and soon, Ukraine, Turkey and even Russia.
The EU will continue with political union, starting with common foreign and defence policies, annual budget increases and tax on e-commerce.

That sounds fabulous - hope we can join!

Tom

 

[flecc]

That sounds fabulous - hope we can join!

Tom

Agreed, but if the hard line Tories have anything to do with it, it's more likely we'll end up as Europe's Cuba.
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[Woosh]

Agreed, but if the hard line Tories have anything to do with it, it's more likely we'll end up as Europe's Cuba.
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they are a tiny fraction.
Luck handed them a government without its own majority that they can blackmail.
Their influence will fizzle out as soon as a deal is approved by Westminster. TM will turf them out as soon as next April if she still in her job.

 

[oyster]

Agreed, but if the hard line Tories have anything to do with it, it's more likely we'll end up as Europe's Cuba.
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Under water?

Merci, M. Cousteau

 

[oldgroaner]

In the Independent
"
Brexit: Downing Street criticises EU for being too 'optimistic' that deal will be reached quickly
No 10 warns the two sides are still some distance apart – and that the EU must make further compromises

Theresa May’s spokesman downplayed growing hopes emerging from Brussels, insisting the two sides are still far apart and that the EU must make further compromises.
He also appeared to toughen up the UK’s requirement for a deal on the future trading relationship – amid fears of a so-called “blind Brexit” – insisting the wording must be “precise”.
Privately, Downing Street believes the EU’s optimism is a device to wring further concessions – by creating the expectation that an agreement is near.

Who are May and co kidding? now they are setting out to make themselves look tough exactly as we predicted in order to appear to have forced the hand of the EU
Just cut the crap and get on with it!
Here's a comment from a reader
"
Chris Bovey 52 minutes ago
I think the EU know it’s unlikely that the Tories will agree to anything, but they know the British government with the help of the right-wing media will try to blame the EU when it all goes tits up, hence, the more conciliatory diplomatic language from Brussels. May can either keep us aligned to the rules Single Market and Customs Union to avoid thousands of British companies going bust, food and medical shortages, etc., which would enrage the Tory Euro-skeptics and Remain voters would even agree with them when they complained "we would be subject to EU laws, but have no say in them", which would be true, but the alternative is a blind / hard Brexit, which nobody in their right mind would want. Or we could drop this ridiculous idea and ditch Brexit ... problem solved.

How very true

 

[tillson]

40% of young adults can’t afford to buy a house. Just shows what an impact the higher cost of the iPhone X and Xs has had on young people’s finances. Add on top of that, student loan repayments for pretend degrees taken in pretend subjects at pretend universities and it starts to looks pretty bleak. I can see a time, in the not to distant future, when they won’t be able go travelling in order to find themselves.

 

[flecc]

40% of young adults can’t afford to buy a house. Just shows what an impact the higher cost of the iPhone X and Xs has had on young people’s finances. Add on top of that, student loan repayments for pretend degrees taken in pretend subjects at pretend universities and it starts to looks pretty bleak. I can see a time, in the not to distant future, when they won’t be able go travelling in order to find themselves.

You left out the cost of cannabis.
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