Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldtom]

What is the other one

Apparently it's S Africa, according to a cabinet source. Mmm!

So, we get Avocados from Chile at a price that will be less advantageous than the present cost to the EU, else the EU may penalise Chile given that trade matters between the EU and the S American country have been under review for the last 12 months.

It's difficult to see how the UK can arrive at an improved trade agreement with S Africa but I'm sure someone will make a case for it and explain how closer ties with SA might benefit the UK more than being part of the EU.

The propaganda department is working feverishly to get the message across that those sunny uplands and unicorns are getting closer.

Pathetic!

Tom

 

[Zlatan]

No answer then Tom.

 

[Woosh]

It's difficult to see how the UK can arrive at an improved trade agreement with S Africa

it's a matter of self belief. It does not matter if it takes 1 year or 50 years or never to do better with the WTO countries than now.
Remainers constantly talk about economics which does not engage leavers because the latter, given a chance to vote, voted on what bothered them which is far from economics.
You need to put yourself in the shoes of your opponents more often and see things their way and engage with them to turn them to your view.

 

[Zlatan]

Well said Woosh.

 

[Zlatan]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-45768848

Junker has certainly changed his stance...

 

[Zlatan]

There is a salient point about Tom's, and other's, inability to explain Corbyn's apparent contradictory stance on Brexit. Much as I, ve criticised Corbyn, s politics I do see him as a socially aware and caring politician. Much as I think his policies are misinformed he does hold them for altruistic reasons. If he does believe in leaving, which from his previous history seems the case, it does mean labelling Brexit as intrinsically anti poor, pro rich, racist, etc etc is wrong. It all depends on what we do with Brexit when we get it. Corbyn apparently sees it as a tool for more fairness and more equal wealth distribution. JRM sees it as something else, and May something else again.

 

[flecc]

You need to put yourself in the shoes of your opponents more often and see things their way and engage with them to turn them to your view.

The way they see things is fantasy, just belief based, and it's a waste of time arguing against that since a faith based belief can never be budged.

Just try arguing with a Jehovah's Witness to understand what I mean. The Brexiter's God is the belief that Britain and the British are uniquely best and always triumph, no matter how much the facts of our history disprove it.
.

 

[Woosh]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-45768848

Junker has certainly changed his stance...

I don't think he has. Apparently TM made concessions on NI.
We will do BRINO until there is a free trade deal with the EU.
It may take 5 years or more.
It works like this: if there is still no deal at the end of the transition, the UK will seek to remain in the customs union and other bodies like Euratom, Medicine Agency, Interpol etc until a deal is done. We'll continue to pay into the EU budget like Norway. This stuff will be couched in vague political lingo so that TM can sell it to all moderate MPs - that will suit quite a few Labour MPs, at least those in London, most of them would not like JC to be next PM.

 

[Woosh]

Just try arguing with a Jehovah's Witness to understand what I mean.

Only a few are die hard JW. Most are only concerned with immigration policy and want a deal.

 

[oyster]

After Plaid Cymru talking about wanting to remain and the possibility of independence, we see SNP as below.

Looks to me as if brexit is, as predicted, causing major doubt about the viability of the UK remaining in existence - let alone in the EU.

SNP could back second Brexit referendum tied to independence vote

Party says it wants assurances Scotland would not have to accept another vote to leave

The Scottish National party could support a second referendum on Brexit if there were guarantees Scotland could also hold another vote on independence, its Westminster leader has said.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/06/snp-could-back-second-brexit-referendum-tied-to-independence-vote

 

[Zlatan]

https://dailym.ai/2E2EFTY

Surprised at change of tack from EU. Thought they, d stick to no deal until llth hour???

 

[flecc]

https://dailym.ai/2E2EFTY

Surprised at change of tack from EU. Thought they, d stick to no deal until llth hour???

I'm not surprised, as I've posted over the last month or so I believe a deal has already been largely set up a while ago. The play acting has been necessary to kid the hardline Brexiters that we've fought for and won a good deal. Just tactics.
.

 

[Zlatan]

I'm not surprised, as i've posted over the last month or so I believe a deal has already been largely set up a while ago. The play acting has been necessary to kid the hardline Brexiters that we've fought for and won a good deal. Just tactics.
.

Yes, I agreed with that Flecc, even said as much myself. But, there are a few weeks to go,(probably more) thought they, d be saying until very last second "no deal". Perhaps they were frightening there own businesses aswell as ours.???

 

[Woosh]

Yes, I agreed with that Flecc, even said as much myself. But, there are a few weeks to go,(probably more) thought they, d be saying until very last second "no deal". Perhaps they were frightening there own businesses aswell as ours.???

It's not the EU changing their tune.
It's all to do with getting the deal approved by our parliament.
That's where the biggest hurdle to any deal is found, because the deal does not get majority support at the moment.
Barnier and May have tricked the ERG into supporting Canada+++ whereas the latter wanted no deal all along.
TM will now say that the deal is Canada+++ and the UK will keep regulatory alignment until Canada+++ is sealed. They will stretch out the negotiation until demography helps the remainers to poll 6 out of 10 voters.

 

[Zlatan]

It's not the EU changing their tune.
It's all to do with getting the deal approved by our parliament.
That's where the biggest hurdle to any deal is found, because the deal does not get majority support at the moment.
Barnier and May have tricked the ERG into supporting Canada+++ whereas the latter wanted no deal all along.
TM will now say that the deal is Canada+++ and the UK will keep regulatory alignment until Canada+++ is sealed. They will stretch out the negotiation until demography helps the remainers to poll 6 out of 10 voters.

And then call a second ref?

 

[oldgroaner]

you still have to search and replace any mention of the ECJ and EU acquis.

No Captain said Baldrick this is where my cunning plan gets really clever!
We leave the ECJ and EU acquis signs on the papers, and unless they ask, we don't tell 'em that now means English Court of Justice and English Union acquis.
Clever 'innit?

 

[oldgroaner]

Yes, Tom I agree Labour's stance, well specifically Corbyn's, is very hard to answer or rationalise , even more so for such as yourself.

But not so contradictory as yours that really wants Labour to be the Tory light party.

 

[oldgroaner]

it's a matter of self belief. It does not matter if it takes 1 year or 50 years or never to do better with the WTO countries than now.
Remainers constantly talk about economics which does not engage leavers because the latter, given a chance to vote, voted on what bothered them which is far from economics.
You need to put yourself in the shoes of your opponents more often and see things their way and engage with them to turn them to your view.

Better still discount them and seek support among the rest of the population which hopefully will be more sensible.

 

[Woosh]

And then call a second ref?

It could well be that we would do CU with regulatory alignment until such a time when the EU creates an associate membership with FOM adapted to suit the UK. That fundamental issue (of immigration or FOM) won for brexit.

 

[Zlatan]

But not so contradictory as yours that really wants Labour to be the Tory light party.

Not quite OG. I want Labour to return to a mainstream Labour movement, neither New or Current. Think along lines of a modern day Wilson. We don't have a Labour movement,, we, ve got watered down homage to Marxism with a leader by your admission has made massive mistakes both in policy and associations. Corbyn will never be in no 10. There really is too much in his past. Mainstream don't see his links as talking to terrorists, but more sympathising. He shouldn't even have gone there. He has shown little wisdom in steering either his own career or party in general. He won't be trusted with country. Biggest shame in Labour for a hundred years. Labour should already be in power.