Brexit, for once some facts.

[Fingers]

Yes Ireland are grateful that the UK were the first country to offer a loan too stablised our currancy.. it was actually 10 years ago. . But it was a loan and it was at market rates and it was and is being paid back with interest. It needs also to be said that more money distruption would have affected British business, so it was also in the UK s interest. The other point is that it was the RBS introduction into the Irish market place of interest only mortgages which destabilised the market and helped overheat the economy.
Without wanting to recycle old postings, but the Irish border problem is not a simple one liner, and the comments from a substantial part of UK BREXIt supporters is so ignorant, that it defies discussion. If your wife is Irish then she should have some understanding of the complexities.
The food situation, the electricity market .and retail distribution are all done on a whole ireland basis. So the accommodation which will be needed post BREXIt. Is very substantial. Milk destined for Bailey's Cream or baby food might transit the border a number of times , between collection, pasteurization, processing and packaging. .. This was feasible while within the EU but becomes more difficult outside. .. who validates the plants?.

In regard to your last point its incredibly simple. We stick to EU laws of health and safety. Nothing changes. if something evolves that is better over time great. If not if its not broke don't fix it.

In reagrd to a people border then yes it does become more problematic. But not unsurmountable. One idea is the status quo remains and the hard border is on the England/Scotland/Wales side of the sea.

If Ireland wants unrestricted trade and the UK wants that what ultimately is the problem? The EU?

 

[Woosh]

This is after months and months of daily fear stories from not be able to fly to not having medicines to not having chocolate. The kitchen sink has been throw at leave voters and the vote has barely waivered.

The vocal minority are in a bubble. An echo chamber. Here is a perfect microcosm of it. Although I daresay the insults I have thrown at me on here wouddn't happen in real life. Well maybe once.

yes, I am not surprised.
I can't see the point of a second referendum for a couple of years.
However, there is a good chance that the margin opens sufficiently by then.
A few things may happen from now to then to help remain: the EU changes their policy on freedom of movement, the Schengen zone sorts out immigration, the Eurozone sorts out Greece and Italy.

 

[Danidl]

Well it won't happen but I'm happy to expore this hypothesis.

Here is the latest opinion poll from the Guardian.

Voters would narrowly back staying in EU in second referendum, poll suggests
We have some new Guardian/ICM polling out today. Mostly it is about Brexit. There is probably just about enough material here to merit a People’s Vote press release, but in truth the main takeaway is that Brexit opinion does not seem to have shifted much in recent weeks even though the talks deadline is looming and speculation about the UK leaving without a deal has intensified.

Second referendum
We asked people, as we have done before, how they would vote if there was another EU referendum tomorrow.

• Voters would narrowly back staying in the EU if another remain/leave referendum were held tomorrow, the poll suggests. On the basis of these results, remain would win by 52% to 48%. Support for remain has gone up since we last asked this question in April, but only slightly. Five months ago it was 45% for remain and 44% for leave, with the rest don’t knows or won’t says. Now it is 46% for remain and 42% for leave.

This is after months and months of daily fear stories from not be able to fly to not having medicines to not having chocolate. The kitchen sink has been throw at leave voters and the vote has barely waivered.

The vocal minority are in a bubble. An echo chamber. Here is a perfect microcosm of it. Although I daresay the insults I have thrown at me on here wouddn't happen in real life. Well maybe once.

That guardian poll may well be accurate. But my belief is that the great British public have given up . They are sick to the backteeth . When the( In my opinion) inevitable downside occurs they will start looking for scapegoats, and will blame all and sundry except themselves . It is not a situation I relish.

 

[Fingers]

yes, I am not surprised.
I can't see the point of a second referendum for a couple of years.
However, there is a good chance that the margin opens sufficiently by then.
A few things may happen from now to then to help remain: the EU changes their policy on freedom of movement, the Schengen zone sorts out immigration, the Eurozone sorts out Greece and Italy.

It would be great if the EU modernises. Shame they wouldn't/couldn't do it before we had to leave.

I think us leaving is minor compared to their other problems though.

The rise of the far right, debt, immigration, unemployment etc.

 

[oldtom]

The new troll has posted another 4 doses of drivel since I identified him as a troll. Still no explanation of how we will benefit from secession; not one iota of information which might begin to suggest that 'Brexit' could actually be a good thing.

Very troll!

Tom

 

[Danidl]

In regard to your last point its incredibly simple. We stick to EU laws of health and safety. Nothing changes. if something evolves that is better over time great. If not if its not broke don't fix it.

In reagrd to a people border then yes it does become more problematic. But not unsurmountable. One idea is the status quo remains and the hard border is on the England/Scotland/Wales side of the sea.

If Ireland wants unrestricted trade and the UK wants that what ultimately is the problem? The EU?

But you cannot stick to EU laws if you start importing and distributing Argentinan beef, USA chickens, and start including them in pizzas, and sandwiches on say the Enterprise express to Dublin.

 

[Woosh]

I think us leaving is minor compared to their other problems though.

it's only because they don't think we'll ultimately leave.

 

[Fingers]

That guardian poll may well be accurate. But my belief is that the great British public have given up . They are sick to the backteeth . When the( In my opinion) inevitable downside occurs they will start looking for scapegoats, and will blame all and sundry except themselves . It is not a situation I relish.

10 years of Tory cuts and austerity will do that to any nation.

Lets see how a Labour/corbyn government does when it gets in. We are hardy bunch and despite what it looks like on here quite optimistic too.

New industries are sprouting up all the time. We are the world leader in renewable energy technology (we've just finished building the worlds biggest wind farm ) and we're well ahead of the curve in electric vehicles to name but 2.

For a country we punch well above our weight so don't worry too much on our behalf.

 

[Fingers]

But you cannot stick to EU laws if you start importing and distributing Argentinan beef, USA chickens, and start including them in pizzas, and sandwiches on say the Enterprise express to Dublin.

There will be licences. It's going to be fine. Money talks. It always does. Politicians just love the limelight. They thrive on cowering nations with fear. Notice how little terrorism stories there are now? No need. They have Brexit to play with.

Everything will be fine, hardly anything will change in the short term.

We actually are one of the largest importers of Argentinian beef already but i get your point.

 

[Danidl]

It would be great if the EU modernises. Shame they wouldn't/couldn't do it before we had to leave.

I think us leaving is minor compared to their other problems though.

The rise of the far right, debt, immigration, unemployment etc.

I do agree that in the context of the EU ,the UK leaving is minor compared to other problems. That was not what you intended...
The EU absorbed the whole of Eastern Germany, and while it caused as hiccup, it did successfully happen.
The EU has absorbed a number of eastern Europe states and there are minor hiccups..
The EU was able to survive as war next door in the Balkans, while respecting it's it' insitutioins.
The EU could have absorbed all the refugees created by the Anglo-American peace keeping adventures.. there is space in rural France for millions.
Without wishing to pry have you travelled extensively in mainland Europe?.

 

[Fingers]

I do agree that in the context of the EU ,the UK leaving is minor compared to other problems. That was not what you intended...
The EU absorbed the whole of Eastern Germany, and while it caused as hiccup, it did successfully happen.
The EU has absorbed a number of eastern Europe states and there are minor hiccups..
The EU was able to survive as war next door in the Balkans, while respecting it's it' insitutioins.
The EU could have absorbed all the refugees created by the Anglo-American peace keeping adventures.. there is space in rural France for millions.
Without wishing to pry have you travelled extensively in mainland Europe?.

No more than most I would say. Holidayed in a lot of the common places. Worked in others. I would say I've been to probably 20 EU countries give or take Not lived there though.

I have nothing against the EU in as much as I see through it more than others. I think the idea of a trading bloc is best way forward. The idea of a federation with Germany at the helm isn't what I think is best for us and thats ultimately where its heading, probaby sooner rather than later.

When Germany tried to take land off Greece as part of its settlement plan it really made me wake up and look at exactly who profits from a successful EU. And guess what. It's not the working people.

Quel surprise!

 

[flecc]

In reagrd to a people border then yes it does become more problematic. But not unsurmountable. One idea is the status quo remains and the hard border is on the England/Scotland/Wales side of the sea.

If Ireland wants unrestricted trade and the UK wants that what ultimately is the problem? The EU?

The DUP won't accept that, or anything that in the slightest way threatens the union status of N.I. and the rest of the UK.

Since the government is dependent on their support it's a non starter.
.

 

[Danidl]

10 years of Tory cuts and austerity will do that to any nation.

Lets see how a Labour/corbyn government does when it gets in. We are hardy bunch and despite what it looks like on here quite optimistic too.

New industries are sprouting up all the time. We are the world leader in renewable energy technology (we've just finished building the worlds biggest wind farm ) and we're well ahead of the curve in electric vehicles to name but 2.

For a country we punch well above our weight so don't worry too much on our behalf.

I am delighted to see investment in windfarm, but which windfarm would that be, ?. And who has manufactured the turbines?.
The two I have checked on will be using Siemens and the other Vestas. .. neither of which is a UK brand.
I noted that the. lovely train I took from Swansea to Cardiff was by Hitachi., I went around Swansea in Mercedes Benz bus, came home in an Airbus. The last pieces of truely world class UK indigenous engineering infrastructure was the ARM holdings compaan of Cambridge, sold to the Japanese,in the weeks after the referendum.
Regrettably, well perhaps not, but the Chinese will take the winners baton for electric automobiles. It's not regrettable because the smog in Asia is serious.
There may well be plenty of areas in which the UK do punch above their weight,but engagement in Europe was not one of them.

 

[Danidl]

No more than most I would say. Holidayed in a lot of the common places. Worked in others. I would say I've been to probably 20 EU countries give or take Not lived there though.

I have nothing against the EU in as much as I see through it more than others. I think the idea of a trading bloc is best way forward. The idea of a federation with Germany at the helm isn't what I think is best for us and thats ultimately where its heading, probaby sooner rather than later.

When Germany tried to take land off Greece as part of its settlement plan it really made me wake up and look at exactly who profits from a successful EU. And guess what. It's not the working people.

Quel surprise!

We are in some Agreement there, and that is yet another reason why BREXIt is a bad ideas. The UK would have potentially provided a valuable counterweight.

 

[flecc]

we're well ahead of the curve in electric vehicles to name but 2.

Where on earth did you get that idea?

France's Renault partner Nissan of Japan in UK manufacturing but not the design of them hardly puts us ahead.

And we are way behind other many other countries in adoption of e-cars and associated technologies.
.

 

[Woosh]

There may well be plenty of areas in which the UK do punch above their weight,but engagement in Europe was not one of them.

we are good in banking, laws, business management and accountancy.
Generally, we are top in money laundering.

 

[oldgroaner]

So we just stick to the status quo despite me not agreeing not it? And being asked my opinion on it? What a strange argument. The EU is failing. I want out. We are getting out.

And what makes you think I didn't understand? Do you know me? Know what I know? Its quite arrogant but then us leavers are used to this attitude. I daresay it cost you a couple of percentage points in the final poll....Imagine what could have been.....

Ah so even though you can't produce any facts or predict the future you now say you did understand?
Tell me apart from the fact you disliked the EU exactly what did you understand?
And once again you trot out the same old "Remainers are arrogant" nonsense, when in fact it's the leavers who didn't know what they were doing and still have no clue of the consequences.
No one was asking you to stick to the status quo (even though from your remarks you had no idea of the value of it did you)
If you don't like the status quo you don't quit and run away as we have done, you send competent politicians to work for change, not the Monty Python actors we have as MEP's
Who's actions have never appeared oddly enough in the media.
Now I wonder why not?
How on Earth did you come up with the notion that somehow we would be better off outside the EU based on nothing except as you have admitted a dislike of it and desire to leave?

What sort of person gambles the future on nothing other than a whim?
And you say Do you know me?
Of course not, but the mindset you show is not in any way novel, in fact it is as I suspected spread among enough individuals to do the sort of harm to the nation that Brexit has done.

If you look back to the very start of this thread I predicted a win for the leave camp, and in fact expected it to be with a bigger margin, because I understand how convincing a life long anti EU blaming policy can affect the attitud of people who don't actually bother to check the veracity of the facts fed to them, and the lies and promises were icing on the cake that clinched the leave Victory.
The EU is failing? hang on, who just said he can't predict the future?
The propaganda machine is still working isn't it?

 

[Zlatan]

The new troll has posted another 4 doses of drivel since I identified him as a troll. Still no explanation of how we will benefit from secession; not one iota of information which might begin to suggest that 'Brexit' could actually be a good thing.

Very troll!

Tom

What I really do not understand about many posters on here is when Tom posts such horrible posts as this (to be fair he has posted far worse and will probably do so in response to this) and not one of you has the decency to tell Tom he is out of order, yet ironically the tiniest detail offered by any leaver is both quickly scrutinised and often put down.
Tom has behaved like this for over 12 months now and put many off posting. He, those offering support and those refusing to criticise this kind of abuse should be ashamed. We are all supposed to be adults and should be capable of criticising poor behaviour whatever our political views.
He should have been banned months ago.
I, ve said it before but its true. Tom is indirectly helping leavers and tories.

 

[oldgroaner]

It would be great if the EU modernises. Shame they wouldn't/couldn't do it before we had to leave.

I think us leaving is minor compared to their other problems though.

The rise of the far right, debt, immigration, unemployment etc.

What are you talking about the internal problems of the UK for?
And before you say it the employment figures are as bent as a nine bob note.
The EU has the same problems we do, the difference is they are more capable of dealing with them.

 

[oldgroaner]

What I really do not understand about many posters on here is when Tom posts such horrible posts as this (to be fair he has posted far worse and will probably do so in response to this) and not one of you has the decency to tell Tom he is out of order, yet ironically the tiniest detail offered by any leaver is both quickly scrutinised and often put down.
Tom has behaved like this for over 12 months now and put many off posting. He, those offering support and those refusing to criticise this kind of abuse should be ashamed. We are all supposed to be adults and should be capable of criticising poor behaviour whatever our political views.
He should have been banned months ago.

Hello Zlatan! Welcome back!
How's the Swamp Draining business?
Seriously Welcome back....

The problem is that Tom does actually have a point here
" Still no explanation of how we will benefit from secession; not one iota of information which might begin to suggest that 'Brexit' could actually be a good thing."

And to my mind having someone say that I must hate living in a country "I allegedly hate" is far worse than being called a Troll