Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

I'm not going anywhere matey. I voted to leave the EU not the UK.

The thing is though, had remain won I wouldn't be whining like a little girl. I'd just move on and accept it.

Everything you have just written comes across as very bitter. I do think Brexit will take years off you but not because it will be a bad thing but because you cannot accept living in a country where the democratic free will is different to yours.

'Sabotage, bigotry, stupid, horrible.' Jesus wept.

Melodramatic much? I love how you are projecting all your fears onto me. It's because you live in an echo chamber.

Guess what? People have different views to you. I think you need to accept this or you really are going to do yourself a mischief.

Once again more rubbish
"Everything you have just written comes across as very bitter. I do think Brexit will take years off you but not because it will be a bad thing but because you cannot accept living in a country where the democratic free will is different to yours.

'Sabotage, bigotry, stupid, horrible.' Jesus wept.

Lets examine that.
Democratic Free will? where does that apply when the information supplied in favour of Brexit consisted of lies and False promises?

Then we can add that vote was skewed with individually targetted propaganda aimed directly at voters personally using highly dubious techniques supported by illegal funding outside the law, and the people who made the promises promptly fled, then crept back when they thought the coast was clear and they and still haven't got a plan.

And in the background for at least a generation the Government here has used the EU as a whipping boy to cover up it's own failures.

People were simply mislead, and they have been for years, then lied to and mislead,using illegal methods of persuasion, how democratic was that?
Added to that the vote was marginal and certainly ever the chief fool Farage described a win so narrow as "unfinished business"

So quite simply it was an inadequate mandate for such a big change where the normal requirement for such a move is a 2:1 difference.

"'Sabotage, bigotry, stupid, horrible.' Jesus wept. you are right about that, it describes the leave campaign to a tee

And do please stop with this attempt at being condescending with remarks like this
"Guess what? People have different views to you. I think you need to accept this or you really are going to do yourself a mischief.

Guess what? I don't actually have to accept your view, and all you are doing actually is wasting time, so let's get back to the real question
Where is your proof that Brexit will benefit the public?
If you can't answer that and support your argument, apart from providing a little comic relief, why have you come on here?

 

[oldgroaner]

Surely not?

Even he couldn't have forecast the referendum outcome.
.

Worryingly I did (there must be some joke about that in there somewhere)

 

[oldgroaner]

I genuinely hate the Tories but I do think its a positive thing we are leaving the EU.

Time as all bad jornalists say will tell.

Yes it is positive, and so is looking for a gas leak with a match.

 

[oldgroaner]

The Home Office have just advertised for an IT person to head up their Brexit IT implementation.

It's caused a storm of criticism for being far to late, the view being that it should have happened two years ago or at least as the Brexit department was formed.

There's so little time left before leaving and the task so immense that it's felt that whoever gets the job will need to have magical powers.

To make matters very much worse, they are only offering a salary of £100,000, not remotely enough to get a top person.
.

They might as well get someone to write an Android app and have all the kids in the country compete for the best Brexit plan

 

[oldgroaner]

But what chance is there of them being any better than pre-1972?

Just look at this example and the UK conduct of Brexit negotiations. Is it any wonder we have no faith?
.

I suspect at this point we should make clear that "Faith" can take many forms,
and I have every faith in what will happen next

"Brexit is every bit as good an idea as Lincoln's to go to the Opera"

And the Government of this country is dead in the water and we are being swept onto the rocks.

When the public finds out the cost of this folly trouble will ensue (even the Government is preparing for that)

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Express
"
Mr Rees-Mogg's European Research Group has unveiled a detailed plan showing how the UK and the EU can avoid the need for new border infrastructure including strict customs checks for crossings between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic after Brexit.

The group said the UK and EU regulations should remain the same, making the need for a hard border unnecessary.

Customs officials could check goods bound for export to the Republic of Ireland before the border.

Incidental inspections by teams of tax inspectors would have to be carried out to ensure customs regulations are being observed.
There are a roster of high-tech proposals to ensure customs checks can be carried out electronically with a minimum of friction.

The document says: "Since UK and EU standards are identical and will remain identical at the point of departure, determining equivalence after Brexit should be straightforward.

"The EU will be able to maintain the integrity of its internal market without erecting a hard border along its border with Northern Ireland," said the ERG paper, launched in Westminster.

"At the same time, the United Kingdom will be able to develop a fully independent trade policy rather than remaining a rule-taker.

You have to ask if this ERG group are for real.

 

[Danidl]

Except those 60 million consumers have a higher profit yiled than the majority of the 400 million consumers. We have a higher purchase power because our economy is so big.

Taken overall 400 million is a lot but break it down into countries and regions and you can see why our 60 million consumers are more important to some others.

I know its difficult for a lot of you guys to see anything worthwhile in UK but we are actually a very strong economy with lots going for us.

It must be horrible living a country you hate.

You obviously misunderstood. I am irish. I live in the republic of Ireland, I have family and relations living in other eu countries ,including the UK. I am actually quite fond of my country and also have no Ill feeling towards England ((except when their rugby team is playing ireland).
I have respect for British engineering and science, but no awe.
Having disposed of your last throwaway comment, I will address the more substantial issue. The UK cannot feed itself. It is dependent on trade with its local eu neighbours to make up the deficit. It has succeeded in balancing the ledger by supplying specialist services, financial etc to Europe and the world. If it chooses to import from the antipodes for its foodstuffs,rather than taking stuff from 20 miles away, it will become more and more impoverished.
By leaving the eu ,the uk will lose its opportunity to market it's services in Europe, and will need to develop markets elsewhere..which they were never ever impeded from doing under EU rules. They will lose these services because eu countries will wish the final court of arbitration to be the European Union court and not the British courts. .
Now these points ,and many more have been trashed out on these postings over some 36,000. .. so it would be difficult to summarize them.
Now the British supermarkets which have made contracts with major Irish food producers are living in a lucky cocoon. .. In many cases they specified the contracts in Sterling before the referendum, aand Irish suppliers, still honouring these contracts , are selling at below cost. These contracts have 2 or 3 year durations,and are now starting to terminate. What would be your guess as to where the next contracts will be pitched. The euro was at 74 p then what is it today?.

 

[Fingers]

Once again more rubbish
"Everything you have just written comes across as very bitter. I do think Brexit will take years off you but not because it will be a bad thing but because you cannot accept living in a country where the democratic free will is different to yours.

'Sabotage, bigotry, stupid, horrible.' Jesus wept.

Lets examine that.
Democratic Free will? where does that apply when the information supplied in favour of Brexit consisted of lies and False promises?

Then we can add that vote was skewed with individually targetted propaganda aimed directly at voters personally using highly dubious techniques supported by illegal funding outside the law, and the people who made the promises promptly fled, then crept back when they thought the coast was clear and they and still haven't got a plan.

And in the background for at least a generation the Government here has used the EU as a whipping boy to cover up it's own failures.

People were simply mislead, and they have been for years, then lied to and mislead,using illegal methods of persuasion, how democratic was that?
Added to that the vote was marginal and certainly ever the chief fool Farage described a win so narrow as "unfinished business"

So quite simply it was an inadequate mandate for such a big change where the normal requirement for such a move is a 2:1 difference.

"'Sabotage, bigotry, stupid, horrible.' Jesus wept. you are right about that, it describes the leave campaign to a tee

And do please stop with this attempt at being condescending with remarks like this
"Guess what? People have different views to you. I think you need to accept this or you really are going to do yourself a mischief.

Guess what? I don't actually have to accept your view, and all you are doing actually is wasting time, so let's get back to the real question
Where is your proof that Brexit will benefit the public?
If you can't answer that and support your argument, apart from providing a little comic relief, why have you come on here?

Well lets unpack this one then. You seem to like that.

Once again more rubbish

You are of course entitled to your opinion. It's how a democracy works. I disagree though.

Lets examine that.
Democratic Free will? where does that apply when the information supplied in favour of Brexit consisted of lies and False promises?

I'm going to assume you know what democratic free will is but just in case. People had a free vote and voted for what they believed in. I'm not sure what promises were given? Some suggestions were proffered but as I'm sure you know vote leave was not a party political or government organisation. It didn't have any power to create a mandate or give election pledges.

Then we can add that vote was skewed with individually targetted propaganda aimed directly at voters personally using highly dubious techniques supported by illegal funding outside the law, and the people who made the promises promptly fled, then crept back when they thought the coast was clear and they and still haven't got a plan.

You mean a campaign for a vote? That's quite logical when you think about it. You may not have agreed with their points but its still quite normal. The illegal funding is being disputed and appealed. It's worth noting the appeal court has overturned the last 3 convictions in favour of the leave side. So lets wait and see before we can agree on that. Politicians being Politicians is still a shock for you? Particuarly ones so loathsome as Gove and Johnson? I can't help you there if you haven't figured that one out yet.

And in the background for at least a generation the Government here has used the EU as a whipping boy to cover up it's own failures.

Can't argue with that, there has certainly been a drip, drip effect ever since the original vote. Maybe that has something to do with the fact the original vote was a lie to the people in the first place? I think if, well I don't have to think its a fact, if the British people were told what the EU really was about they wouldn't have voted in in the first place. They were fed a lie of it purely being a trading bloc.

People were simply mislead, and they have been for years, then lied to and mislead,using illegal methods of persuasion, how democratic was that?
Added to that the vote was marginal and certainly ever the chief fool Farage described a win so narrow as "unfinished business"

What were the illegal methods of persuasion? I'm really interested to know this. Was it subliminal? Trails left in the air by planes? Aliens? Please. This is important and it may change my mind. In regards to Farage it would have been for him. It's his living. The majority of us would have just tutted and got on with our lives. No biggie.

So quite simply it was an inadequate mandate for such a big change where the normal requirement for such a move is a 2:1 difference.

Again, you have proof of this? It's another huge statement that if true may change my mind. My understanding of a referendum is simple majority rules. Did you catch the one up in Scotland a while ago? That was also quite contentious with big ramnifications either way. That was a simple majority. Different rules apply in England re; Referendums?

And do please stop with this attempt at being condescending with remarks like this
"Guess what? People have different views to you. I think you need to accept this or you really are going to do yourself a mischief.

Guess what? I don't actually have to accept your view, and all you are doing actually is wasting time, so let's get back to the real question
Where is your proof that Brexit will benefit the public?
If you can't answer that and support your argument, apart from providing a little comic relief, why have you come on here?

I'll stop being condescending to you when you stop calling me childish names and being rude. Deal?

For about the 36th time. I have no proof. I cannot predict the future.

 

[Fingers]

You obviously misunderstood. I am irish. I live in the republic of Ireland, I have family and relations living in other eu countries ,including the UK. I am actually quite fond of my country and also have no Ill feeling towards England ((except when their rugby team is playing ireland).
I have respect for British engineering and science, but no awe.
Having disposed of your last throwaway comment, I will address the more substantial issue. The UK cannot feed itself. It is dependent on trade with its local eu neighbours to make up the deficit. It has succeeded in balancing the ledger by supplying specialist services, financial etc to Europe and the world. If it chooses to import from the antipodes for its foodstuffs,rather than taking stuff from 20 miles away, it will become more and more impoverished.
By leaving the eu ,the uk will lose its opportunity to market it's services in Europe, and will need to develop markets elsewhere..which they were never ever impeded from doing under EU rules. They will lose these services because eu countries will wish the final court of arbitration to be the European Union court and not the British courts. .
Now these points ,and many more have been trashed out on these postings over some 36,000. .. so it would be difficult to summarize them

My wife is Irish. Going over there next weekend actually. Lovely place.

Obviously I disagree with a lot of your points. The EU can take away a lot of its financial business but the EU isn't the world. I'm no lover of the city but t hanks to Thatcher its become important to us a tax generator. We may lose some income but I can't see everyone ripping up their buiness and moving away. Doesn't make sense financially and these people are all about money. End of the day thats the bottom line. 2 metaphors for the price of one.

We will still trade foodstuffs with the EU particuarly Ireland. Lets be honest without our trade Ireland would be in a lot trouble. Europe isn't the EU.

My annoyance at Ireland, not the people but the government is just how quick they are to put the proverbial boot in. It was only five years or so ago that we bailed you out with significant cash at reduced rates as we are so close. It's a shame but it doesn't change anything it's just a bit petty. The border could have been sorted if Ireland had the will but they are too busy point scoring over past grievances.

And tbh honest the last point wasn't aimed at yourself so apologies for that.

 

[Woosh]

Some suggestions were proffered but as I'm sure you know vote leave was not a party political or government organisation. It didn't have any power to create a mandate or give election pledges.

that is technically correct but leave campaigners did make a lot of promises without the caveats. Examples include the £350 millions a week on the red bus (while not mentioning the rebate), access to the single market (while not mentioning that the key feature of frictionless trade is not possible), migration control (while not mentioning the free crossing in NI).
Were some voters misled? possibly but the real problem is the small winning margin seems to have vanished and even reversed.
If parliament orders a second referendum then the new consultation is as valid as the last one. I don't see the need for one before a real FTA is concluded in a couple of years but the ERG and the opposition will vote against Chequers, parliament may just as well delay or cancel brexit for now and try again at a later date when there is a government with a sensible majority. The brexit debate will run until there is at least a 60/40 margin to settle it.

 

[Woosh]

BTW, if anyone thinks that we can be outside the EU and enjoys access to the Single Market like Norway if we join the EEA, this example will make you think again. Yes, you get access but it's not frictionless.
Any parcel to Norway needs a compulsory customs declaration.
I sent a small 10kgs parcel to a member in Norway today which contains a battery. Because of that, only a small number of couriers will take it. We use DPD for this. They charge us £25 + VAT for that customs declaration, the freight charge £25 + VAT is about the same for Italy or Greece except you don't need a customs declaration for the EU27.

 

[oldgroaner]

Well lets unpack this one then. You seem to like that.

Once again more rubbish

You are of course entitled to your opinion. It's how a democracy works. I disagree though.

Lets examine that.
Democratic Free will? where does that apply when the information supplied in favour of Brexit consisted of lies and False promises?

I'm going to assume you know what democratic free will is but just in case. People had a free vote and voted for what they believed in. I'm not sure what promises were given? Some suggestions were proffered but as I'm sure you know vote leave was not a party political or government organisation. It didn't have any power to create a mandate or give election pledges.

Then we can add that vote was skewed with individually targetted propaganda aimed directly at voters personally using highly dubious techniques supported by illegal funding outside the law, and the people who made the promises promptly fled, then crept back when they thought the coast was clear and they and still haven't got a plan.

You mean a campaign for a vote? That's quite logical when you think about it. You may not have agreed with their points but its still quite normal. The illegal funding is being disputed and appealed. It's worth noting the appeal court has overturned the last 3 convictions in favour of the leave side. So lets wait and see before we can agree on that. Politicians being Politicians is still a shock for you? Particuarly ones so loathsome as Gove and Johnson? I can't help you there if you haven't figured that one out yet.

And in the background for at least a generation the Government here has used the EU as a whipping boy to cover up it's own failures.

Can't argue with that, there has certainly been a drip, drip effect ever since the original vote. Maybe that has something to do with the fact the original vote was a lie to the people in the first place? I think if, well I don't have to think its a fact, if the British people were told what the EU really was about they wouldn't have voted in in the first place. They were fed a lie of it purely being a trading bloc.

People were simply mislead, and they have been for years, then lied to and mislead,using illegal methods of persuasion, how democratic was that?
Added to that the vote was marginal and certainly ever the chief fool Farage described a win so narrow as "unfinished business"

What were the illegal methods of persuasion? I'm really interested to know this. Was it subliminal? Trails left in the air by planes? Aliens? Please. This is important and it may change my mind. In regards to Farage it would have been for him. It's his living. The majority of us would have just tutted and got on with our lives. No biggie.

So quite simply it was an inadequate mandate for such a big change where the normal requirement for such a move is a 2:1 difference.

Again, you have proof of this? It's another huge statement that if true may change my mind. My understanding of a referendum is simple majority rules. Did you catch the one up in Scotland a while ago? That was also quite contentious with big ramnifications either way. That was a simple majority. Different rules apply in England re; Referendums?

And do please stop with this attempt at being condescending with remarks like this
"Guess what? People have different views to you. I think you need to accept this or you really are going to do yourself a mischief.

Guess what? I don't actually have to accept your view, and all you are doing actually is wasting time, so let's get back to the real question
Where is your proof that Brexit will benefit the public?
If you can't answer that and support your argument, apart from providing a little comic relief, why have you come on here?

I'll stop being condescending to you when you stop calling me childish names and being rude. Deal?

For about the 36th time. I have no proof. I cannot predict the future.

If you have no proof and cannot predict the future, why did you vote for something you didn't understand, and had no idea how it would work out?
So it was just a gamble and you have admitted it..
And frankly no one would invest the amount of money spent on Cambridge analytica if they weren't sure that the method of pursuasion and stealing people's data did work. After all it had been used in America.
So you think a simple majority enough to decide so important a referendum?
The leave campaign champion certainly didn't think so did he?

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

 

[Fingers]

that is technically correct but leave campaigners did make a lot of promises without the caveats. Examples include the £350 millions a week on the red bus (while not mentioning the rebate), access to the single market (while not mentioning that the key feature of frictionless trade is not possible), migration control (while not mentioning the free crossing in NI).
Were some voters misled? possibly but the real problem is the small winning margin seems to have vanished and even reversed.
If parliament orders a second referendum then the new consultation is as valid as the last one. I don't see the need for one before a real FTA is concluded in a couple of years but the ERG and the opposition will vote against Chequers, parliament may just as well delay or cancel brexit for now and try again at a later date when there is a government with a sensible majority. The brexit debate will run until there is at least a 60/40 margin to settle it.

Just say there was a second referendum (there won't be but lets just pretend) what happens if remain win? Think about it.

Would there have to be a third? Fourth? Where does it end? What does it mean long term about any vote? Can they all be overturned if they are not to your satisfaction?

I just do no get the logic. The argument is done for a generation or 5.

 

[oldtom]

Where is your proof that Brexit will benefit the public

I got tired of waiting for him to produce something constructive and have now given up. It follows, therefore, that his only mission on entering the discussion here is that of an internet troll, much like 'Captain Nemo', the submariner/sailor fellow who goes by the same first name as that Swedish footballer now plying his trade in California.

Just another oxygen thief!

Tom

 

[Fingers]

If you have no proof and cannot predict the future, why did you vote for something you didn't understand, and had no idea how it would work out?
So it was just a gamble and you have admitted it..
And frankly no one would invest the amount of money spent on Cambridge analytica if they weren't sure that the method of pursuasion and stealing people's data did work. After all it had been used in America.
So you think a simple majority enough to decide so important a referendum?
The leave campaign champion certainly didn't think so did he?

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

So we just stick to the status quo despite me not agreeing not it? And being asked my opinion on it? What a strange argument. The EU is failing. I want out. We are getting out.

And what makes you think I didn't understand? Do you know me? Know what I know? Its quite arrogant but then us leavers are used to this attitude. I daresay it cost you a couple of percentage points in the final poll....Imagine what could have been.....

 

[Fingers]

I got tired of waiting for him to produce something constructive and have now given up. It follows, therefore, that his only mission on entering the discussion here is that of an internet troll, much like 'Captain Nemo', the submariner/sailor fellow who goes by the same first name as that Swedish footballer now plying his trade in California.

Just another oxygen thief!

Tom

More insults. When you can't win the argument I guess that's your final gambit.

How's that working out for you?

I shall remain above the fray.

Dignity prevails.

 

[Woosh]

Just say there was a second referendum (there won't be but lets just pretend) what happens if remain win? Think about it.

Would there have to be a third? Fourth? Where does it end? What does it mean long term about any vote? Can they all be overturned if they are not to your satisfaction?

I just do no get the logic. The argument is done for a generation or 5.

A second referendum will be advisory like the last one, parliament will still be the decider, so a government with sufficient majority won't need a new referendum unless they want to renege on a key manifesto promise. For both major parties, that would be to cancel brexit even if they throw in the mix a few questions.
There should have been a winning threshold the last time, so should be one the next time, a minimum of 60/40 will make sure that everyone accepts the clear verdict.

 

[Danidl]

My wife is Irish. Going over there next weekend actually. Lovely place.

Obviously I disagree with a lot of your points. The EU can take away a lot of its financial business but the EU isn't the world. I'm no lover of the city but t hanks to Thatcher its become important to us a tax generator. We may lose some income but I can't see everyone ripping up their buiness and moving away. Doesn't make sense financially and these people are all about money. End of the day thats the bottom line. 2 metaphors for the price of one.

We will still trade foodstuffs with the EU particuarly Ireland. Lets be honest without our trade Ireland would be in a lot trouble. Europe isn't the EU.

My annoyance at Ireland, not the people but the government is just how quick they are to put the proverbial boot in. It was only five years or so ago that we bailed you out with significant cash at reduced rates as we are so close. It's a shame but it doesn't change anything it's just a bit petty. The border could have been sorted if Ireland had the will but they are too busy point scoring over past grievances.

And tbh honest the last point wasn't aimed at yourself so apologies for that.

Yes Ireland are grateful that the UK were the first country to offer a loan too stablised our currancy.. it was actually 10 years ago. . But it was a loan and it was at market rates and it was and is being paid back with interest. It needs also to be said that more money distruption would have affected British business, so it was also in the UK s interest. The other point is that it was the RBS introduction into the Irish market place of interest only mortgages which destabilised the market and helped overheat the economy.
Without wanting to recycle old postings, but the Irish border problem is not a simple one liner, and the comments from a substantial part of UK BREXIt supporters is so ignorant, that it defies discussion. If your wife is Irish then she should have some understanding of the complexities.
The food situation, the electricity market .and retail distribution are all done on a whole ireland basis. So the accommodation which will be needed post BREXIt. Is very substantial. Milk destined for Bailey's Cream or baby food might transit the border a number of times , between collection, pasteurization, processing and packaging. .. This was feasible while within the EU but becomes more difficult outside. .. who validates the plants?.
The NI assembly is a running sore. . The majority of people there voted against BREXIt. Only the DUP with its links to the Conservatives were in favour. The assembly has been out of action almost since the referendum. So the NI people have no local representatives,for nigh on two years. In one sense this suits Westminster, as it prevents a focus for discontent, but a people scorned take other paths,any the majority, both traditional unionist and traditional republican have been sidelined.

 

[Fingers]

A second referendum will be advisory like the last one, parliament will still be the decider, so a government with sufficient majority won't need a new referendum unless if they want to renege on a key manifesto promise. For both major parties, that would be to cancel brexit even if they throw in the mix a few questions.
There should have been a winning threshold the last time and should be the next time, a minimum of 60/40 will make sure that everyone accepts the clear verdict.

Well it won't happen but I'm happy to expore this hypothesis.

Here is the latest opinion poll from the Guardian.

Voters would narrowly back staying in EU in second referendum, poll suggests
We have some new Guardian/ICM polling out today. Mostly it is about Brexit. There is probably just about enough material here to merit a People’s Vote press release, but in truth the main takeaway is that Brexit opinion does not seem to have shifted much in recent weeks even though the talks deadline is looming and speculation about the UK leaving without a deal has intensified.

Second referendum
We asked people, as we have done before, how they would vote if there was another EU referendum tomorrow.

• Voters would narrowly back staying in the EU if another remain/leave referendum were held tomorrow, the poll suggests. On the basis of these results, remain would win by 52% to 48%. Support for remain has gone up since we last asked this question in April, but only slightly. Five months ago it was 45% for remain and 44% for leave, with the rest don’t knows or won’t says. Now it is 46% for remain and 42% for leave.

This is after months and months of daily fear stories from not be able to fly to not having medicines to not having chocolate. The kitchen sink has been throw at leave voters and the vote has barely waivered.

The vocal minority are in a bubble. An echo chamber. Here is a perfect microcosm of it. Although I daresay the insults I have thrown at me on here wouddn't happen in real life. Well maybe once.

 

[Woosh]

reaction of the currency market to the ERG's plan:
The Pound dropped from $1.3030 to $1.30 or 0.24% on revelation of their plan, the city spent an hour to go over it, then simply dismissed it as nothing new and their threat to remove TM as unrealistic.
The Pound not only recovered in the afternoon (completely by 15:30) and since rose a little.
The ERG is inconsequential.