Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

I totally agree May is incompetent. But discounting a Public Inquiry about the Litvinenco case, saying Portland Down is wrong in identifying Novichok,dismissing intercepted messages,ignoring the threats Putin has made to traitors, ignoring the fact Russia has a long history of dealing with traitors( starting with ice axes etal) ,ignoring 14 Russian deaths on Uk teritory, forgetting about the umbrella attack of 78 ( which Russian KGB were behind) IMHO is missing the point.
Whoever was in charge , even Corbyn, would at moment be thinking **,what next...
The facts are all there, yes May and BJ are not best statesmen ( sorry people) in world but you can not discount what's happening because of that.

I quoted on here a few days ago Litvinenco's dying statement. I think that convinced me more than anything May or BK has said that Putin is behind this.
I wonder what Churchill would have done ?? He sank French fleet on much less evidence than this. May's response has actually been quite subdued. ??? Sending diplomats home ? Its not exactly like marching on Poland.

 

[Woosh]

zlatan, international support has a price, we'll have to pay it eventually, so it would be wise to use it wisely and indeed, sparingly.
BJ and TM did not use our influence wisely.

 

[Zlatan]

zlatan, international support has a price, we'll have to pay it eventually, so it would be wise to use it wisely and indeed, sparingly.
BJ and TM did not use our influence wisely.

Well, I,d hope we,d only give support if we thought the case deserved it. I,d also hope we have received support thinking our case was just. Perhaps I,m a little naive.
I don't think many leaders would offer support to an unworthy cause with consequence being involved in a war ?

I think this episode should be beyond party politics. Neither side should try and score political points over such a dangerous scenario. To my mind labour ( extfreme left) have used incident to bash May and BJ with, more so than May has used it. She has simply had to deal with it. Cotbyn. ( IMHO) should have offered outright support from the off. Not doing so has fed the political argument. ( and lent an ear to the Russian propoganda)

 

[Woosh]

I think this episode should be beyond party politics.

huh? why?
Twice the UN's security council met over it.
There are right important decisions and wrong important decisions.
BJ & TM went too fast and now it's difficult for us to climb down.

 

[oldgroaner]

To my mind labour ( extfreme left) have used incident to bash May and BJ with, more so than May has used it. She has simply had to deal with it. Cotbyn. ( IMHO) should have offered outright support from the off. Not doing so has fed the political argument. ( and lent an ear to the Russian propoganda)

BS of the worst kind,why are you still sticking to this nonsense?
To your mind? try thinking with it.

 

[oldgroaner]

zlatan, international support has a price, we'll have to pay it eventually, so it would be wise to use it wisely and indeed, sparingly.
BJ and TM did not use our influence wisely.

Worse they took it as a right and demanded it. Then Boris lied.

 

[oldgroaner]

I totally agree May is incompetent. But discounting a Public Inquiry about the Litvinenco case, saying Portland Down is wrong in identifying Novichok,dismissing intercepted messages,ignoring the threats Putin has made to traitors, ignoring the fact Russia has a long history of dealing with traitors( starting with ice axes etal) ,ignoring 14 Russian deaths on Uk teritory, forgetting about the umbrella attack of 78 ( which Russian KGB were behind) IMHO is missing the point.
Whoever was in charge , even Corbyn, would at moment be thinking **,what next...
The facts are all there, yes May and BJ are not best statesmen ( sorry people) in world but you can not discount what's happening because of that.

I quoted on here a few days ago Litvinenco's dying statement. I think that convinced me more than anything May or BK has said that Putin is behind this.
I wonder what Churchill would have done ?? He sank French fleet on much less evidence than this. May's response has actually been quite subdued. ??? Sending diplomats home ? Its not exactly like marching on Poland.

Portland Down didn't identify Novichoc they said the sample was "of a kind" when pressed.

 

[Zlatan]

Portland Down didn't identify Novichoc they said the sample was "of a kind" when pressed.

If you contact wikipedia they will probably alter quote I gave? Until they do I,ll assume wikipedia , although not perfect, is certainly more reliable than your opinion. BTW I believe its Novichok.

 

[Danidl]

You have to agree Zlatan that May is s serial cock-up. She was a complete disaster as Home Secretary, cutting police forces to the point that they can no longer function, curbing stop and search powers with the results we are now seeing in London, slashing border force resources with the obvious results. She even called it wrong on her stand regarding Brexit, initially backing remain and then hastily switching to leave when circumstances changed. She got the general election wrong, she’s got the Brexit negotiation wrong, underestimating the EU, and now she’s got the Russian poisoning scandal wrong. These are just the edited highlights, even the briefest of scrutiny shows that everything, literally everything, she touches goes wrong. As if all of this isn’t bad enough, she displays a grotesque stubbornness by pretending she is always right.

I don’t think it is unfair or over dramatic to say that Theresa May’s incompetence is the biggest threat that this country has faced in a very long time. She is in the process of causing huge amounts of irreparable damage via botched Brexit negotiations, and like it or not, Russia can hurt the U.K. and May is taking us along a path where they very well might do so.

I am no conspiracy theorist, but I am convinced she thought the Salisbury poisoning would be a “blame the Russians and quickly move on” Brexit diversion tactic. But as I have show above, yet again she mis-judged the situation, as she has done on so many other occasions. There is a clear pattern to her behaviour which dovetails perfectly with how the poisoning situation has been exploited. It’s highly dangerous.

I am not going to comment on much of what you have written here, not because I either disagree or agree, but because it is inappropriate for an outsider to discuss internal politics, but one point ,and it brings us back on thread is whether even if she had a united cabinet and government and was a very canny negociator, that the shambles which is the Brexit negotiations, from the UK side ,could have been anything else. It remains a badly concieved concept, meandering on to a sorry inept conclusion.
In fairness I don't believe that you can blame that fiasco on her alone, there is enough blame to go around the entire British establishment, who have demonstrated a serious lack of responsibility and leadership.

 

[Woosh]

that the shambles which is the Brexit negotiations,

it may look a shambles but isn't a shambles.
TM has to be careful with her position, she has to prove to her hard brexit colleagues that their position leads to nowhere before striking for the middle ground, which is a soft brexit and ultimately, acceptable to the EU, ROI and a majority of voters.

 

[Danidl]

it may look a shambles but isn't a shambles.
TM has to be careful with her position, she has to prove to her hard brexit colleagues that their position leads to nowhere before striking for the middle ground, which is a soft brexit and ultimately, acceptable to the EU, ROI and a majority of voters.

I would to believe that, but I cannot . The behaviour at Christmas when the left hand did not know what the right was doing does little to bolster that confidence.we are within 11 months of the formal date already

 

[oldgroaner]

If you contact wikipedia they will probably alter quote I gave? Until they do I,ll assume wikipedia , although not perfect, is certainly more reliable than your opinion. BTW I believe its Novichok.

So now you prefer to believe Wikipedia over porton down because it fits with your fetish about Putin?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[oldgroaner]

it may look a shambles but isn't a shambles.
TM has to be careful with her position, she has to prove to her hard brexit colleagues that their position leads to nowhere before striking for the middle ground, which is a soft brexit and ultimately, acceptable to the EU, ROI and a majority of voters.

Well thank you for starting my day with a joke, in fact two.
Apart from the comments on May, whatever leads you to believe that a soft Brexit is acceptable to the majority of voters?
And what popularity it may enjoy will prove transient when things start to go wrong.
And don't imagine for a moment they won't!

 

[oldgroaner]

Cloud Cuckoo time in the Daily Mail
"
Britain is now the 'envy of Europe' as more people are in work than ever before, says minister

• Esther McVey said Britain is the ‘envy of Europe’ as 1,000 people a day find work
• ‘Project Fear’ claimed 500,000 people would lose their jobs if we voted to leave
• Unemployment is also reportedly now at its lowest rate since 1975

The reader's comments are entirely against this so far this morning, they are saying we are both a "Laughing stock" and the "Pity of Europe"

A far as I can see Zero hours employment is only ever Part time and the millions on it should be marked as a separate category still seeking a proper job.
So more than 500,000 have already lost their jobs and we haven't even left yet!

You cannot run a normal settled life and have a Mortgage on Zero Hours jobs.
As an example "Number on Zero Hours contracts October to December 2013 (586,000 or 1.9% of people in employment),

And how many more right now?


The Tory's are employing the standard Right wing method of the "Big Lie"

 

[Zlatan]

So now you prefer to believe Wikipedia over porton down because it fits with your fetish about Putin?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

This is what Porton Down actually said. ( 5 days ago) and I quote from transcript..( sky news)

"We have been unable to identify the origin of the Novichok nerve agent , we feel it is not our responsibility to do so"

It was Novichok no matter what you believe.

Porton Down and Wikipedia are both saying it was Novichok. I,d guess Wikipedia are simply quoting the leading experts, ie Porton Down.

 

[oldtom]

The Tory's are employing the standard Right wing method of the "Big Lie"

Of course they are! It is SOP for all fascists and straight out of Joseph Goebbels' work book in his early years. The Nazi party used it successfully for many years and got away with it until they stupidly mis-timed the moment to pick a fight with Russia.......er.....that sounds more than a little familiar currently!

Tom

 

[Danidl]

The following is from the letters page in the irish Times of today. I believe it articulates clearly the current situation.....
Sir, – Every day of the week we read and hear about complex, vigorous “negotiations” taking place between the Irish and British governments regarding Brexit. It is like watching two people “negotiating” the price of a house being sold by someone else.

It is a farce designed to persuade the Irish people that “something is being done”. A kind of pantomime horse clopping back and forth upon the political stage to create a reassuring impression of influence and activity.

The decisions on Brexit will be made in Brussels by the major EU members. Everything else is a sideshow. If anything, the Irish Border issue is being used to wind down the clock until Theresa May gets told “There’s your dinner, eat it or go hungry”.

Many times over the past 300 years “Britain’s difficulty has been Ireland’s opportunity”. But Brexit is a disaster for Britain and a disaster for Ireland. Long after the exit treaties and terms of trade are written and decided, the DUP will have to answer to the farmers, businesses and people of Northern Ireland for the destructive, jingoistic, “cut off my nose to spite my face” approach it has taken to Brexit.

If the British government has a grain of sense , it will put the question to their people afresh – for the simple reason that their people were so obviously duped and misled by the false assurances and misinformation peddled by the likes of Boris Johnson and Michael Gove to procure their votes.

Ireland (North and South) is like the story about the two fellows at sea in a small boat. The boat springs a leak and one fellow starts bailing out the water as fast as he can with a bucket. The other fellow sits there with his arms folded. The fellow with the bucket says, “What are you doing just sitting there, we’re sinking?” The man with the arms folded says, “Ah well now, ’tis not my boat”.

The DUP has its arms folded. Its people will in due course be asking why the boat sank. – Yours, etc,

MICHAEL DEASY,

 

[oldtom]

Love post #29598 Danidl

Tom

 

[Woosh]

do you have the impression that the public is being softened up to accept we'll going to bomb Assad's army?

 

[oldtom]

This was Dennis Skinner's take on the woman so idolised my Theresa May and so many other dyed-in-the-wool tory inbreds:



The following video clip is stand-up comic, Stuart Lee's, take on the Thatcher years and her legacy......and Guildford!

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1935091449864092

Tom