Brexit, for once some facts.

[tillson]

No evidence that would support a jury conviction of beyong all reasonable doubt is or is likely to be forthcoming...it would be very hard to get such in any event. However there is circumstantial evidence , certainly the type which any police force would have used to bring someone in for questioning...
Had the suspect threatened the victim before ?
Had he the means ?
Had he the opportunity?
Was there a potential upside for the suspect at this time... ?
Could other people have done it?
Was it done by someone else to curry favouritism from the suspect? ... A la Thomas a Becket.
Was it done by another Russian faction to embarrass the leadership?
Was it intended as a provocative gesture?
The remainder of the EU are not all eejits and they will have access to signal intel and gossip from their own sources . In particular the Germans and the Poles very likely have exploitable links. I would not bet against deniable official Russian involvement.

I can’t really argue with any of that. But equally, details are so scant with desirable political capital available for so many, that it’s possible to make a range of diverse scenarios fit.

If an accusation of the use of chemical weapons is going to be levelled at a foreign nation, then I believe we need to back that up with more than just a stirring in Theresa May’s drawers. I agree, we should not expect a “beyond reasonable doubt” standard of evidence, but FA evidence doesn’t really cut the mustard.

 

[Zlatan]

I can’t really argue with any of that. But equally, details are so scant with desirable political capital available for so many, that it’s possible to make a range of diverse scenarios fit.

If an accusation of the use of chemical weapons is going to be levelled at a foreign nation, then I believe we need to back that up with more than just a stirring in Theresa May’s drawers. I agree, we should not expect a “beyond reasonable doubt” standard of evidence, but FA evidence doesn’t really cut the mustard.

Its not quite FA Tillson.
They have identified Novichok. They know the history of Skripal and his feud with Putin. They know Putin has threatened traitors . They know ( if you believe last years PI into Litvinenco) that Russia are capable of such behaviour (they have done it before, with Polonium in 2006 , and were involved in the 1978 umbrella / ricin attack.)
There have also been around 14 deaths of Russian dissidents in Uk under at best suspicious circumstances.
There is probably a lot more we dont know..

 

[flecc]

Its not quite FA Tillson.
They have identified Novichok. They know the history of Skripal and his feud with Putin. They know Putin has threatened traitors . They know ( if you believe last years PI into Litvinenco) that Russia are capable of such behaviour (they have done it before, with Polonium in 2006 , and were involved in the 1978 umbrella / ricin attack.)
There have also been around 14 deaths of Russian dissidents in Uk under at best suspicious circumstances.
There is probably a lot more we dont know..

We don't know any of that, it's what our "side" say and which you seem to be willing to believe without question, adding to it with innuendo.

I don't accept what either side say without question, given the sheer scale on which both have lied during the last 70 odd years.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Its not quite FA Tillson.
They have identified Novichok. They know the history of Skripal and his feud with Putin. They know Putin has threatened traitors . They know ( if you believe last years PI into Litvinenco) that Russia are capable of such behaviour (they have done it before, with Polonium in 2006 , and were involved in the 1978 umbrella / ricin attack.)
There have also been around 14 deaths of Russian dissidents in Uk under at best suspicious circumstances.
There is probably a lot more we dont know..

And most of all we don't know whether a dissident Russian Faction or organisation/ Old USSR Republic/middle East Terrorist group haven't acquired the material in order to create friction with Russia and the West
do we?

And even if we accept it was " Putin Wot Done it"
The undeniable facts are as follows

1. TM used the opportunity to inflate her own popularity
   
2. She also used non release of the full details avaible to discredit Corbyn
3. Strategically if we had "Spies" in Moscow we have lost that intel
4. Worse than that we have robbed ourselves of knowing what Putin's agents here were up to.
5. By now if Putin is half the menace he is portrayed to be, he will have activated sleepers to replace them.

Profit to the UK? Only to cement the worst Prime Minister ever firmly in place by further trickery.

After all, if Putin has killed off Fourteen others here, why has it taken till now when TM desperately needs a "Falklands Crisis Mark 2" to rescue her, for us to react ?

And why did the Secretary of state refuse the Coroner an inquiry FOUR TIMES over the Litvinenko Case?

This unfortunate affair has been a get out of Jail Free card for TM
Dangerous to play at politics with the Big players, sacrifice both our own in place Agents in Russia, and lose track of the ones Putin has here, when you are as incompetent as our Government are.

Especially when they have lost 800,000 people during the last two years who came into the Country / left/vanished without trace.

What hope have we that TM and co. can outwit Putin who no doubt has planned for such a reaction if he is the guilty party?

All Pigs Fuelled up and Ready to Fly.

 

[oldgroaner]

Lets reduce this to the simplest possible terms
Putin had publicly threatened revenge on Russian Traitors in Foreign lands
~Probably he has done so
May had done the same with Drone attack on ours when they joined ISIS in foreign lands
She has announced this was a success
The difference?
Not a lot is there?
Added to that the Leave Faction in Conservatives have used Weapons of Mass Persuasion to attempt to sway the Referendum vote
Such methods are in my view a far more sinister new threat to Democracy.

 

[oyster]

STOP PRESS! The i̶m̶p̶o̶r̶t̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶s̶ urgently needed distraction has come through

Royal wedding: Prince Harry and Meghan Markle choose flowers

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43606171

How remarkable that they decided on Easter Saturday ready for Easter Sunday newspapers. Oh no - they didn't decide on Good Friday, or a month or two ago, of course not. With the chosen florist getting a nice bit of publicity.

 

[oldgroaner]

It appears the Tory are running scared over the Cambridge Analytica scandal to come up with anything so weak as this
From the Telegraph
"
Exclusive investigationElection watchdog officials face calls to resign over Brexit 'bias'

Is this really the best they can do? is it now the case anything other than the current opinion of the Right wing press by questioning "Holy Brexit" and the methods used by electioneers now means you have to resign?

Pathetic!

 

[oldgroaner]

STOP PRESS! The i̶m̶p̶o̶r̶t̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶n̶e̶w̶s̶ urgently needed distraction has come through

Royal wedding: Prince Harry and Meghan Markle choose flowers

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43606171

How remarkable that they decided on Easter Saturday ready for Easter Sunday newspapers. Oh no - they didn't decide on Good Friday, or a month or two ago, of course not. With the chosen florist getting a nice bit of publicity.

Oh! what fun and think of all the Merchandising! There won't be any room on the Front pages for boring old news and Brexit will there?

Must rush out to buy a commemorative MUG before the stocks run out.
(They will be on the Sea from China, complete with the Union Jacks with the happy couple inset in the flag!)

 

[oldtom]

The longer this affair drags on, the more it seems incredibly suspicious. Skripal's daughter has been revived from her induced coma made a miraculous recovery from her comatose state and spoken......to whom? What did she have to say?

Is Mr Skripal really seriously ill and/or is he being kept in an induced coma for other reasons? There are so many unanswered questions surrounding this matter but the attached pics seem to suggest the 'military-grade, deadly nerve agent' isn't quite as deadly as has been suggested by political figures. My only recollection of a deadly chemical weapon is the test conducted by UK scientists on the island of Gruinard just off the west coast of Scotland. The UK government in 1942 authorised the test of anthrax to see how deadly it was and the effect it might produce, dropped on German cities. This is an excerpt from 'Wiki' which describes when the island was once again declared fit for habitation by mammals:

Decontamination

Starting in 1986 a determined effort was made to decontaminate the island: 280 tonnes of formaldehyde solution diluted in sea water was sprayed over all 196 hectares of the island and the worst-contaminated topsoil around the dispersal site was removed. A flock of sheep was then placed on the island and remained healthy.

On 24 April 1990, after 48 years of quarantine and four years after the solution was applied, junior defence minister Michael Neubert visited the island and announced its safety by removing the warning signs.[9] On 1 May 1990, the island was repurchased by the heirs of the original owner for the original sale price of £500.[11]

As of October 2007 there have been no cases of anthrax in the island flock.

Have we been lied to for strategic reasons? Perhaps the poison in this case loses its effect extremely quickly unlike anthrax.

I'm not generally into conspiracy theories but this whole 'ex-soviet spy murdered in UK by Russian agents' story just doesn't add up.

Police went in and out of #Skripal door for 3 weeks, before they found the “nerve agent” - at the door.
That’s really interesting . Any questions?

There was this confusing pic too - seems police tape also protects against possible contamination................


Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Police went in and out of #Skripal door for 3 weeks, before they found the “nerve agent” - at the door.
That’s really interesting . Any questions?

Question: Does it really take that long to make some and apply it to the door?

Answer: No, that wasn't the problem, they needed to put it somewhere where a Police Guard could protect it on the grounds of not causing Public panic.

I leave you with this to ponder on.
What happens if it turns up to be somewhere else?

 

[Woosh]

My only recollection of a deadly chemical weapon is the test conducted by UK scientists on the island of Gruinard just off the west coast of Scotland

typo, anthrax isn't a chemical.
I like the pics though.

 

[Kudoscycles]

The poisoning came along at a perfect time for Theresa May,she seems very comfortable with security matters. The anti semitism scandal hit Corbyn at just the wrong time.
Was it orchestrated or just bad luck for Corbyn....I notice he has ditched the Lenin hat .!!!!!
KudosDave

 

[oldtom]

typo, anthrax isn't a chemical.
I like the pics though.

Yes, I lumped it into the well-known 'chemical weapon' category wrongly. It is derived, as I'm sure you know, from a bacterium so should be referred to more correctly as a biological agent or bio-weapon if used in warfare.

Mind you, I don't suppose the people these things are used against are likely to quibble about what we call them......

Tom

 

[Woosh]

The anti semitism scandal hit Corbyn at just the wrong time.

it is something that JC can't do anything about.
It will pass soon, I suppose.

 

[oldtom]

The poisoning came along at a perfect time for Theresa May

Didn't it just! Wasn't it amazingly fortuitous that something so sinister and long-lasting cropped up just when pundits were analysing the agreement reached recently between the government and the EU.......most appearing negative about the accord and criticising the government for capitulating to the EU demands, some accusing May & Co of a complete sell-out.

Serendipity, eh! Some say you make your own luck....mmmm!

Tom

 

[tillson]

it is something that JC can't do anything about.
It will pass soon, I suppose.

Yes, Labour have put their top man on the case to sort things out. Eddie Izzard takes up the post in a few days time.

 

[Woosh]

Yes, Labour have put their top man on the case to sort things out. Eddie Izzard takes up the post in a few days time.

I suppose the fundamental issue is 'should Labour accept very large donations from regular donors?'

 

[flecc]

I suppose the fundamental issue is 'should Labour accept very large donations from regular donors?'

Here as in the USA, political parties and their senior politicians are bought, either with cash or post-politics lucrative appointments.
.

 

[Woosh]

Here as in the USA, political parties and their senior politicians are bought, either with cash or post-politics lucrative appointments.
.

for practical reasons, better the devil(s) you know.
I wish JC luck.

 

[oyster]

There was this confusing pic too

Simply shows that horseshoes really don't bring much luck or protection.