Brexit, for once some facts.

flecc

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And are you conspiracy theorists actually trying to say our government arranged this poisoning to make labour look unelectable. That is absolutely utterly barmy .
As I posted I have no idea who carried out either of these attacks and doubt we would. There's no doubt about their purpose though, which is to discredit Russia.

Russia is far from short of enemies accrued over many years, both individuals and nations. In consequence there are many possible sources with the ability, many of whom would have no compunction in using a Russian as a victim to discredit Russia.
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oldgroaner

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Read the comment you chose to repost.
And , I,ve never said it is or isn't Putin. I said he knows more than he,s letting on. If it wasn't his government he knows exactly which one it was.
Really you certainly implied as much with this
"
l. IMO ( for what its worth) I think Putin knows all about it. If someone acted without his knowledge...well they,d get same treatment..( you asked)
I,m a football supporter but dont think we should be going to World cup. The drug scandal ( with Putin's knowledge and blessing) was enough to make my mind up, this just reinforces that opinion. ( The programme about Russia's involvement with drugs tells us everything about Putin's view of sport. It is similar to Hitler's in 30's."

So the implication of that is someone acted With his knowledge, and effectively you blamed him.
 

tillson

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Read the comment you chose to repost.
And , I,ve never said it is or isn't Putin. I said he knows more than he,s letting on. If it wasn't his government he knows exactly which one it was.
I don’t know about that Zlatan, it seems too bungled and obvious for a Russian state sponsored murder. That is unless they wanted to make an audacious statement as a warning, but why would they then strongly deny any involvement? If the Russian state wanted this man dead, they have the resources to isolate him, murder him and dispose of his body without any trace. He would simply become one of many missing people in the U.K. who are never located.

The timeline of events in Salisbury and how it all played out seems very odd as well. It just doesn’t sit right.
 

Zlatan

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Correction You and others believe they know, when in fact they do not.
You have neither a cogent reason or evidence in support of that supposition.
" According to the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg, some Labour MPs have signed a draft early day motion saying they “unequivocally” accept that Russia was to blame for the nerve agent poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter, Yulia. Sixteen MPs seem to have signed it already."

You will never get absolute proof on anything if you question it enough.

I suspect they are privvy to evidence we might see in 60 years time...???
Labour MPs showing a vote against Corbyn suggests to me they know something.

When I,m tried for something, I want OG and Tillson on jury.

And that's Labour MPs...!!!
If I,m stupid you are gullible OG.

Yet again OG you claim to know more sat in your home in Hull reading Daily Mail than MPs sat in Westminster with hourly updates from MI5, and think its perfectly acceptable to call me stupid for disagreeing with you.Yes, ofcourse you do OG.
I,m stupid and Trump is a dullard with a low IQ incapable of public speaking. Yes, right again OG..
 
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flecc

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Whatever our opinions on who is responsible its obvious to us all Corbyn has made yet another blunder. His own MPs are saying he should have kept quiet.I thought his strength was sitting on fence; Galloway was on radio this morning making labour even more unelectable... When are labour going to realise country does not want extreme left...in any way shape or form. Its exactly why we are stuck with other extreme. Every single time Corbyn walks straight into oblivion.
Your anti-Labour stance looks ever more phobic, your obsession having shades of the late Senator Joe McCarthy's intense hatred of communism and his irrational views in that connection.

Left of Conservatism and Liberalism is not the extreme left you seem to think it is. It's Socialism.

As for Corbyn's wish for us to have dialogue with Russia, he's in good company. When the last batch of sanctions was being imposed on Russia by the EU, Germany argued strongly for dialogue and keeping the sanctions minimal. They were Christian Democrats, not extreme left, making Corbyn's identical position a very moderate one.
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oldgroaner

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" According to the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg, some Labour MPs have signed a draft early day motion saying they “unequivocally” accept that Russia was to blame for the nerve agent poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter, Yulia. Sixteen MPs seem to have signed it already."

You will never get absolute proof on anything if you question it enough.

I suspect they are privvy to evidence we might see in 60 years time...???
Labour MPs showing a vote against Corbyn suggests to me they know something.

When I,m tried for something, I want OG and Tillson on jury.

And that's Labour MPs...!!!
If I,m stupid you are gullible OG.

Yet again OG you claim to know more sat in your home in Hull reading Daily Mail than MPs sat in Westminster with hourly updates from MI5..Yes, ofcourse you do OG.
Perhaps you can explain how being "Sceptical" has conflated to "Gullible" in that odd brain of yours?
Gullible people are those like yourself who fall prey to propaganda.
Not the ones who see it coming and resist and question it.
 
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Zlatan

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Perhaps you can explain how being "Sceptical" has conflated to "Gullible" in that odd brain of yours?
Gullible people are those like yourself who fall prey to propaganda.
You have fallen prey to Putin's lies.
Calling me stupid for suggesting Putin is guilty is more than sceptical..Its ignorant and assumes a knowledge way over your capability. IMHO Putin is guilty. There are 16 labour MPs thinking same.( along with most Tory)

Flecc
I am not anti Labour , I,m anti extreme left labour which is keeping Labour out of government. This fiasco and Corbyn's handling of it has cost Labour millions of votes again. Its Corbyn and your kind who are actually anti labour.You just don't see it. Country just dont want Galloway or Corbyn with their Russian sympathies, irrespective of Putin's guilt over this episode.
May keeps in power purely because the country see even her and this shambles of a government more viable than that which Corbyn is offering. Its utterly ridiculous. A shadow opposition government that is so out of touch has never been seen before. Or perhaps you would like to explain why Corbyn is not yet in power and won't be anytime in future.
 
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tillson

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When I,m tried for something, I want OG and Tillson on jury.
You'd get a fair trial :)

Whatever you read or hear, regardless of the source, temper the information received with the fact that it is good for a government who holds power to have the great unwashed in fear of something or somebody. It makes it easier to govern because attention is diverted away from what is really happening and it can unite people behind the leader. That's true for all sides.
 
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flecc

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Or perhaps you would like to explain why Corbyn is not yet in power and won't be anytime in future.
No need to explain when he could well be in power after the next general election. That's because most of the electorate don't have your jaundiced view of Corbyn.

Was that sung chant we heard "Oh Theresa May" or "Oh Jeremy Corbyn"?
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Zlatan

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You'd get a fair trial :)

Whatever you read or hear, regardless of the source, temper the information received with the fact that it is good for a government who holds power to have the great unwashed in fear of something or somebody. It makes it easier to govern because attention is diverted away from what is really happening and it can unite people behind the leader. That's true for all sides.
Agreed, but Putin is also coming up for election and he operates under similar but more extreme principles. Have a read
, yes perhaps biased but makes good points..
"
Spy poisoning: why Putin may have engineered gruesome calling card.

Insiders say all trails lead back to Moscow, suggesting a deliberate act to incite row with UK
Luke Harding and Andrew Roth

Tue 13 Mar 2018 19.18 GMT Last modified on Tue 13 Mar 2018 22.00 GMT

Vladimir Putin and Theresa May.
The response from the Kremlin has been uncompromising. The foreign ministry described Theresa May’s accusation against Moscow as a “circus show”. Its boss Sergei Lavrov said there was no proof the poison used against Sergei Skripal came from Russia. And the embassy in London promised an “equal and opposite reaction” to any UK measures.

Beneath this bluster, however, is cool calculation. Skripal and his daughter Yulia were poisoned in Salisbury with a Moscow-made military nerve agent, developed during the 1970s and 1980s during the cold war. Whoever wanted to murder him might have used a subtler weapon. Instead, his assassins picked novichok. How it was deployed remains unclear.

Sergei Skripal scandal has sent UK-Russia relations tumbling. What next?

One former employee of the Russian special services said nerve agents were used only if the goal was to draw attention. “This is a very dirty method. There’s a risk of contaminating other people, which creates additional difficulties,” he told the Kommersant newspaper, adding: “There are far more delicate methods that professionals use.”

In other words, novichok was a gruesome calling card. As those who organised the hit must have known, the trail goes directly back to Moscow. The incident even took place down the road from Porton Down, the government’s military research base, which swiftly tested and identified

All of which means Vladimir Putin and his FSB spy agency have probably sought to engineer a confrontation with the UK. Why now?

There are many theories. The most obvious answer is Sunday’s presidential election. True, Putin is guaranteed to win. He has scarcely bothered campaigning. But the Kremlin remains worried about turnout, amid widespread voter apathy and calls from Alexei Navalny, Russia’s most prominent opposition politician, to boycott the vote. The authorities want to the poll to look authentic, even if it isn’t.

Putin and Trump.
On Tuesday, Donald Trump broke his silence about Russia’s probable role in the poisoning of Sergei Skripal. Photograph: Evan Vucci/AP
Over the next few days, state TV channels will pump out this message: Moscow is again the victim of a western conspiracy. Russia under siege is a favourite Kremlin theme. Conflicts with the west can bear some fruit: Putin has maintained the bump in his nominal popularity rating after his annexation of Crimea, despite western condemnation and sanctions. The wave of patriotism that followed also split the Russian opposition.

So a row with London can do Putin no harm, especially among voters who share his uncompromising nationalist worldview and his smouldering sense of victimhood.

One former senior Foreign Office adviser said it was a mistake to assume that Skripal’s spy work for MI6 triggered the decision to poison him in Salisbury. Skripal was merely the “instrument”. The real target as the UK, he said. “I don’t think it was about Skripal. It was a geo-political intervention.”

Russia tries to entice voters to polls to prop up Putin's legitimacy
The adviser added: “Moscow’s goal is to demonstrate the UK’s weakness and isolation and to drive a wedge between us and other countries. The Kremlin understands how to make these sorts of interventions at just below the level that will trigger a serious collective reaction against them.”

To my mind all way more believable than attack being internal and or a 3rd party."

From Guardian.
No doubt OG will dismiss all this as reporters being stupid and Guardian biased. In mean time Putin gets away with murder, with Corbyn being an apologist.??? He,s played straight into Putins hands.
 
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oldgroaner

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You have fallen prey to Putin's lies.
Calling me stupid for suggesting Putin is guilty is more than sceptical..Its ignorant and assumes a knowledge way over your capability. IMHO Putin is guilty. There are 16 labour MPs thinking same.( along with most Tory)

Flecc
I am not anti Labour , I,m anti extreme left labour which is keeping Labour out of government. This fiasco and Corbyn's handling of it has cost Labour millions of votes again. Its Corbyn and your kind who are actually anti labour.You just don't see it. Country just dont want Galloway or Corbyn with their Russian sympathies, irrespective of Putin's guilt over this episode.
May keeps in power purely because the country see even her and this shambles of a government more viable than that which Corbyn is offering. Its utterly ridiculous. A shadow opposition government that is so out of touch has never been seen before. Or perhaps you would like to explain why Corbyn is not yet in power and won't be anytime in future.
My goodness, well done! first we have a post where you deny saying Putin is guilty, now we have one where you say he is!

There doesn't seem to be any point in reminding you I am not a Corbyn Fan anyway, but it is disturbing, watching you losing the plot and contradicting yourself as you just did.

By the way I posted this
"
I am no Fan of Putin, why should I be?and there you go, doing the Tory thing of trying to make me out a Putin supporter.

Why do you do this? it is infantile and stupid."

I didn't call you stupid, I said that this sort of behaviour is.
There is a big difference
 

tommie

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Superb performance in the House today from your terrorist-supporting buffoon Corbyn,

that's his chances of becoming PM gone west,..... good to see he had the wit to do it in front of millions,

suppose you can`t expect much less... pig and grunt come to mind,

Corbyn-traitor-3-650.jpg
 
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oldgroaner

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Agreed, but Putin is also coming up for election and he operates under similar but more extreme principles. Have a read
, yes perhaps biased but makes good points..
"
Spy poisoning: why Putin may have engineered gruesome calling card.

Insiders say all trails lead back to Moscow, suggesting a deliberate act to incite row with UK
Luke Harding and Andrew Roth

Tue 13 Mar 2018 19.18 GMT Last modified on Tue 13 Mar 2018 22.00 GMT

Vladimir Putin and Theresa May.
The response from the Kremlin has been uncompromising. The foreign ministry described Theresa May’s accusation against Moscow as a “circus show”. Its boss Sergei Lavrov said there was no proof the poison used against Sergei Skripal came from Russia. And the embassy in London promised an “equal and opposite reaction” to any UK measures.

Beneath this bluster, however, is cool calculation. Skripal and his daughter Yulia were poisoned in Salisbury with a Moscow-made military nerve agent, developed during the 1970s and 1980s during the cold war. Whoever wanted to murder him might have used a subtler weapon. Instead, his assassins picked novichok. How it was deployed remains unclear.

Sergei Skripal scandal has sent UK-Russia relations tumbling. What next?

One former employee of the Russian special services said nerve agents were used only if the goal was to draw attention. “This is a very dirty method. There’s a risk of contaminating other people, which creates additional difficulties,” he told the Kommersant newspaper, adding: “There are far more delicate methods that professionals use.”

In other words, novichok was a gruesome calling card. As those who organised the hit must have known, the trail goes directly back to Moscow. The incident even took place down the road from Porton Down, the government’s military research base, which swiftly tested and identified

All of which means Vladimir Putin and his FSB spy agency have probably sought to engineer a confrontation with the UK. Why now?

There are many theories. The most obvious answer is Sunday’s presidential election. True, Putin is guaranteed to win. He has scarcely bothered campaigning. But the Kremlin remains worried about turnout, amid widespread voter apathy and calls from Alexei Navalny, Russia’s most prominent opposition politician, to boycott the vote. The authorities want to the poll to look authentic, even if it isn’t.

Putin and Trump.
On Tuesday, Donald Trump broke his silence about Russia’s probable role in the poisoning of Sergei Skripal. Photograph: Evan Vucci/AP
Over the next few days, state TV channels will pump out this message: Moscow is again the victim of a western conspiracy. Russia under siege is a favourite Kremlin theme. Conflicts with the west can bear some fruit: Putin has maintained the bump in his nominal popularity rating after his annexation of Crimea, despite western condemnation and sanctions. The wave of patriotism that followed also split the Russian opposition.

So a row with London can do Putin no harm, especially among voters who share his uncompromising nationalist worldview and his smouldering sense of victimhood.

One former senior Foreign Office adviser said it was a mistake to assume that Skripal’s spy work for MI6 triggered the decision to poison him in Salisbury. Skripal was merely the “instrument”. The real target as the UK, he said. “I don’t think it was about Skripal. It was a geo-political intervention.”

Russia tries to entice voters to polls to prop up Putin's legitimacy
The adviser added: “Moscow’s goal is to demonstrate the UK’s weakness and isolation and to drive a wedge between us and other countries. The Kremlin understands how to make these sorts of interventions at just below the level that will trigger a serious collective reaction against them.”

To my mind all way more believable than attack being internal and or a 3rd party."

From Guardian.
And you really believe all this?
Care to explain why it is any more than opinions?
 

Zlatan

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And you really believe all this?
Care to explain why it is any more than opinions?
Perhaps you could explain why you dont ?
And BTW I,ve said Putin was guilty throughout, I said we didn't have proof.
Like I said you know more than MPs and journalists. You are being very very stupid now OG.
 

oldgroaner

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Superb performance in the House today from your terrorist-supporting buffoon Corbyn,

that's his chances of becoming PM gone west,..... good to see he had the wit to do it in front of millions,

suppose you can`t expect much less... pig and grunt come to mind,

View attachment 23803
It was actually, he seems to be the only one there who kept his head and talked sense,but then you don't want to hear any do you?
All you want to hear is shouting and threatening a country we are powerless to affect, but then that's what children do, when they are frightened, they throw a tantrum.
Sooner or later the Grown ups will have to sort out the mess the children have made.
What will you do if it turns out ISIS did it,or North Korea say?
 
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flecc

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Russia under siege is a favourite Kremlin theme.
Because it's the truth. Russia has been deliberately surrounded on the west by NATO recruited countries, and that has also been attempted on the southern flank as well with Georgia and the Ukraine. That's undeniably been a siege policy by the West, primarily promoted by the USA.

Russia has called a halt to that in Georgia, the Crimea and the Ukraine and I strongly support them in that.

Having both Russia and the West strong is the best assurance of no new world war.
.
 

oldgroaner

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Perhaps you could explain why you dont ?
And BTW I,ve said Putin was guilty throughout, I said we didn't have proof.
Too crude, too many unexplained anomalies in the story, and no Actual Evidence.
Just waiting to see if anyone else claims responsibility, that could be interesting

Sorry but you did not say that, Putin was guilty, you implied it, and you know it , then changed your story.
 
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oldgroaner

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Perhaps you could explain why you dont ?
And BTW I,ve said Putin was guilty throughout, I said we didn't have proof.
Like I said you know more than MPs and journalists. You are being very very stupid now OG.
So now I'm stupid am I?
What makes you so confident in the opinions of Politicians and Journalists? they were wrong about Iraq's WMD's
And Corbyn was right, and he is now.
We need more than opinions
 

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