Brexit, for once some facts.

[anotherkiwi]

I know TM is desperately looking for trade deals with the US and China and I had this kind of Eureka! moment. Why don't you buy tea from China and sell it to the US? To be delivered to Boston which has a lovely port.

But how would you pay for the first shipments of tea? Well Afghanistan is in a bit of a bind at the mo' you could restart the poppy fields and trade the opium for the Chinese tea...

 

[flecc]

You do when you have exhausted all other options!

I can only think the other options must be infinite in number, since I've waited all my life for the UK to do rational.

We haven't even done the rational thing with our two increasing to four countries and formed the FRB (Federal Republic of Britain), colloquially called Britain.

Instead we have an involved structure of nations and countries called variously Britain, Great Britain or the United Kingdom, depending how many nations or countries are being included. And we've created the fictional nationality of British, even though Britain is not a nation. Plus having lost our former empire we now try to desperately hang on to it by calling the former members the Commonwealth.

Utterly bonkers.
.

 

[oldtom]

Maybe the hidden strategy is to join the Euro zone? Knowing that the pleb would be up in arms against that, crashing out miserably is a required passage before asking to enter again but this time for the whole nine yards?

Oh, you give far too much credit to the tory party! Their politicians believe they have a god-given right to run the country and collectively, they are completely incapable of such deep thought as you suggest.

Their main objective is to crush the plebs into complete submission and increase the gulf between them and those born on the wrong side of the tracks. Everything from which it is feasible to produce a profit should be theirs to do as they please with - that is their creed and that is why they want to remove every last piece of publicly-owned infrastructure and divide it up among their own kind so the plebs can be exploited from cradle to early grave.....forever!

Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

Two different issues, Brexit yes/no is still marginal, but there probably is enough public support to elect Corbyn now. But only if he hangs on to the majority of Labour Brexiters. As I said and there's no question about it. If Corbyn abandons Brexit a huge proportion of his labour voters will abandon him.

And the large number of them who couldn't bring themselves to vote Tory will go to UKIP regardless of credibility, just to support Brexit. There's no other choice since the LibDems are pro Remain.
.

Did most Labour Brexit voters care anything about the CU,they seemed more the xenophobic lot who wanted to stop immigration,not sure even now they know much about the CU.
So as long as Corbyn keeps pushing immigration control and U.K. jobs and benefits he can do what he likes with the CU.
The Tories are in much more difficult position,TM needs to keep the bastards on board and they want a hard Brexit despite the cost to jobs.
TM has once again kicked the can down the road and put the trade bill back to May....she still doesn’t know which way to jump and never will.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

Did most Labour Brexit voters care anything about the CU,they seemed more the xenophobic lot who wanted to stop immigration,not sure even now they know much about the CU.
So as long as Corbyn keeps pushing immigration control and U.K. jobs and benefits he can do what he likes with the CU.
The Tories are in much more difficult position,TM needs to keep the bastards on board and they want a hard Brexit despite the cost to jobs.
TM has once again kicked the can down the road and put the trade bill back to May....she still doesn’t know which way to jump and never will.
KudosDave

100% agreed. It will be interesting to hear what she has to say on Friday. After Corbyn's statement she needs to say something at least as positive about her intended direction.
.

 

[Woosh]

100% agreed. It will be interesting to hear what she has to say on Friday. After Corbyn's statement she needs to say something at least as positive about her intended direction.
.

that may be difficult. She wants a free trade deal, that implies some form of customs union and same standards - otherwise, goods will have to be inspected at the borders, in both directions (for VAT and duty paid, phytosanitary certifcates, certificates of conformity, certificate of origins, load and count, packing lists etc) and a Court has to be nominated to arbitrate.
Liam Fox claims that any CU is a sell out.

Who is boss?

Personally, I think the tory membership may find LF's argument more plausible.

 

[flecc]

Personally, I think the tory membership may find LF's argument more plausible.

But come the day of EU reckoning it won't allow for a deal that gives free access to the EU market. If we aren't to crash out we will have to make some concessions that the hard Brexiters won't like.

It's all a horrible mess that leaves Labour now in a much stronger position than the Tories, which doesn't leave TM the option of ducking the issue by getting the electorate to decide by a general election.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

I know TM is desperately looking for trade deals with the US and China and I had this kind of Eureka! moment. Why don't you buy tea from China and sell it to the US? To be delivered to Boston which has a lovely port.

But how would you pay for the first shipments of tea? Well Afghanistan is in a bit of a bind at the mo' you could restart the poppy fields and trade the opium for the Chinese tea...

Been there done that.

 

[anotherkiwi]

...this argument is based on nostalgia for a system where free and fair trade represented a cornerstone of Britain’s foreign policy. It is nostalgic because such a system, which had its origins in colonies and treaty ports, was neither free nor based on fair rules. It’s a fallacy that provides – at best – some comfort against the uncertainty of Brexit. At worst, it evokes memories among many countries, including China, of an era when trade was used to exacerbate exploitation rather than alleviate poverty.

The arguments that rules-based free trade reduces poverty do not stand up to scrutiny. Not only are they divorced from the history of the colonial trade system, they are also inconsistent with the way in which China lifted some 700m citizens out of absolute poverty.

Oh dear!

http://theconversation.com/why-the-uk-wont-get-a-better-trade-deal-with-china-outside-the-eu-90981

 

[Woosh]

But come the day of EU reckoning it won't allow for a deal that gives free access to the EU market. If we aren't to crash out we will have to make some concessions that the hard Brexiters won't like.

It's all a horrible mess that leaves Labour now in a much stronger position than the Tories, which doesn't leave TM the option of ducking the issue by getting the electorate to decide by a general election.
.

we can probably pay up to 20-30 billions a year for cherry picking.
whether the EU will name their price is another matter.

 

[Kudoscycles]

that may be difficult. She wants a free trade deal, that implies some form of customs union and same standards - otherwise, goods will have to be inspected at the borders, in both directions (for VAT and duty paid, phytosanitary certifcates, certificates of conformity, certificate of origins, load and count, packing lists etc) and a Court has to be nominated to arbitrate.
Liam Fox claims that any CU is a sell out.

Who is boss?

Personally, I think the tory membership may find LF's argument more plausible.

The Tory membership may be impressed by LF,but the EU will never let the U.K. having a trade deal that also lets us go off and do trade deals with others....that is ‘Cake and eat it’. The whole of Fox’s speech and no doubt May’s upcoming speech is assuming we can have this ideal result,but it is pure fantasy,at the moment it satisfies the Tory bastards but it is an impossible dream,really a waste of time.
Imagine if we do a free trade deal with China or India,the EU is not going to let us bring cheap nil tariff goods into the U.K. and flood the EU with same goods tariff free U.K.-EU,the EU are not stupid. We already have history we are currently being fined euro 2 million by the EU because HMRC are useless at collecting duties on imported jeans...and we ask them to trust us.
Just don’t know where this is all going to end up,but it isn’t going to be a ‘deep and impressive’ free trade deal,we could end up with less control than we currently have being in the EU.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

I know TM is desperately looking for trade deals with the US and China and I had this kind of Eureka! moment. Why don't you buy tea from China and sell it to the US? To be delivered to Boston which has a lovely port.

But how would you pay for the first shipments of tea? Well Afghanistan is in a bit of a bind at the mo' you could restart the poppy fields and trade the opium for the Chinese tea...

We could buy opium from Pakistan,then sell it to the Chinese in Guangzhou,swop it for tea,porcelain and lovely silk and ship that to the Americas,buying cheap guns to ship back to Pakistan.
The city of London could launder the cash.
Just got that feeling of deja vu.
If they don’t like what we are doing,we send in a gunboat.
KudosDave

 

[oldtom]

If the UK remains in the EU, there is an excellent chance that the NHS will survive and prosper. If, however, the tory plans to crash out (I can't see any other way, right now), materialise, then the NHS will disappear forcing everyone to provide their own insurance-based health cover, mainly through American companies or their new British-based subsidiaries acting on their behalf.

That's the American way! This attached pic describes another plank of the American way - unfortunately, nobody was asked if they wanted to align the UK closer to the USA after exiting the EU!



Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

If the UK remains in the EU, there is an excellent chance that the NHS will survive and prosper. If, however, the tory plans to crash out (I can't see any other way, right now), materialise, then the NHS will disappear forcing everyone to provide their own insurance-based health cover, mainly through American companies or their new British-based subsidiaries acting on their behalf.

That's the American way! This attached pic describes another plank of the American way - unfortunately, nobody was asked if they wanted to align the UK closer to the USA after exiting the EU!

View attachment 23570

Tom

Unbelievable!

 

[oldtom]

Unbelievable!

You may well still believe that such a possibility is unlikely, perhaps even unbelievable, but it is an almost certain consequence in the aftermath of a tory 'victory' in removing the UK from the EU in a manner of their choosing.

Crashing out of the EU will be disastrous for the UK and that will be further exacerbated by an election thereafter which returns a tory majority in parliament. They will see that as carte blanche and the perfect opportunity to steer the UK in a direction that benefits the already rich and influential at the expense of the ordinary folk who have no offshore accounts, can't gain charity status for their family, but have tax deducted from any wages or benefit they receive without any opportunity to choose otherwise.

If anyone imagines that the NHS is off-limits for the tory party, just wait and see how quickly you are proved wrong should the sequence of events I have just described come to fruition. Nobody's job will be safe after 'Brexit' and new legislation will quickly appear which penalises any form of industrial action by collective bodies. Forget unicorns and rainbows; the future for the UK if the tories have their way over the next 18-24 months will be like the worst dystopian nightmare imaginable.

I feel sorry for people like this man who did something that none of the loudmouthed R Soles among the parliamentarians responsible for promoting 'Brexit' have ever done - he fought in battle for the survival of this country against fascism. Today, the fascists are actually governing the UK!

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10156225729963872

Tom

 

[oldtom]

And.....if you think Boris Johnson's apparent buffoonery is simply an act, I can assure you he really is that stupid!

Check this out:
https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2018/02/27/boris-johnson-irish-border-camden-islington-favourite-19-responses-online/

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

You may well still believe that such a possibility is unlikely, perhaps even unbelievable, but it is an almost certain consequence in the aftermath of a tory 'victory' in removing the UK from the EU in a manner of their choosing.

Crashing out of the EU will be disastrous for the UK and that will be further exacerbated by an election thereafter which returns a tory majority in parliament. They will see that as carte blanche and the perfect opportunity to steer the UK in a direction that benefits the already rich and influential at the expense of the ordinary folk who have no offshore accounts, can't gain charity status for their family, but have tax deducted from any wages or benefit they receive without any opportunity to choose otherwise.

If anyone imagines that the NHS is off-limits for the tory party, just wait and see how quickly you are proved wrong should the sequence of events I have just described come to fruition. Nobody's job will be safe after 'Brexit' and new legislation will quickly appear which penalises any form of industrial action by collective bodies. Forget unicorns and rainbows; the future for the UK if the tories have their way over the next 18-24 months will be like the worst dystopian nightmare imaginable.

I feel sorry for people like this man who did something that none of the loudmouthed R Soles among the parliamentarians responsible for promoting 'Brexit' have ever done - he fought in battle for the survival of this country against fascism. Today, the fascists are actually governing the UK!

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10156225729963872

Tom

My"unbelievable" remark wasn't in reference to the NHS,it was to the actions of the American Human Vermin towards the families of victims of the Lunatic with a gun!
It's not news that the Tory party hates the NHS.

 

[oldtom]

Heseltine has a view:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1986906614682986

Tom

 

[oyster]

And.....if you think Boris Johnson's apparent buffoonery is simply an act, I can assure you he really is that stupid!

Check this out:
https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2018/02/27/boris-johnson-irish-border-camden-islington-favourite-19-responses-online/

Tom

“We think that we can have very efficient facilitation systems to make sure that there’s no need for a hard border, excessive checks at the frontier between Northern Ireland and the Republic."

This use of words like "excessive" is becoming ever more common as a bit meaning-removal. Set your definition of excessive wherever you like, it is obvious that you don't need more than that amount. But that amount might be vastly more than anyone else would think acceptable.

 

[oldgroaner]

And.....if you think Boris Johnson's apparent buffoonery is simply an act, I can assure you he really is that stupid!

Check this out:
https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2018/02/27/boris-johnson-irish-border-camden-islington-favourite-19-responses-online/

Tom

And the appalling attitude to the Public in this remark reminds you this was nothing to do with reducing Pollution.
"we anaesthetically and invisibly took hundreds of millions of pounds from the accounts of people travelling between those two boroughs without any need for border checks whatever.”
He might have admitted that if they had taken that much money from the Public, it can't have reduced Pollution, all that much can it? or they would have taken a great deal less!
Claims like this
"The latest figures from TFL show that so far there has been a 13% reduction in Nitrogen Oxide and 15% reduction in Particulate Matter vehicle emissions within the zone. Carbon emissions have been reported as being cut by 16%.

Is that all??? newer cars on the road during the period could amount to most of that. I was expecting a much better rate of reduction than that.

And the bit he fails to mention is the cost of the scheme.

"Conservative councillor Phil Taylor challenge's TfL's assertion that congestion charging is generating substantial surpluses. He says: "TfL's own statement of accounts show that the cumulative surplus generated from the start of the scheme until the end of the last financial year was only £189.7 million.

"This amount has barely covered the original scheme's set up costs of £161.7 million. Pretty much all of the £677.4 million collected in the first three and a bit years of operation of the scheme has been spent on out of control set up and running costs."

So it amounts to a very expensive way of achieving not much in the way of controlling the situation
Imagine the Balls up that so called border controls would be using just visual recognition of container lorries passing through?