Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Fair enough Flecc, I dont see it quite like that but understand your reasoning. Without right wing press propoganda Corbyn ( IMHO) would be viewed ( by majority, not Corbyinites) in exactly same way.
Perhaps Corbynites are equally indoctrinated. A few people I know have unswerving faith in his ability, I see that as misguided.

I certainly don't have unswerving faith in him, but I'm certain it's time to give him the chance. If he's right, great, we all win. If he's a disaster you'll be proved right. Anything is better than the type of corrupt Tory governments we've been suffering recently, try this example:

The practice of charging extra for paying by credit cards has long been objectionable. So from next Saturday the 13th, charges for using a credit card will be banned by law.

The government's HMRC which has long charged extra for using a credit card has, two weeks in advance of the new law, now banned credit card payments of tax in order to avoid the effects of the new law by making life difficult for us. In other words, a law for us but a different one for them.

It's just like the prison sentences given to MPs and Lords who used the expenses system to steal on a grand scale. They only served a quarter of their very short sentences, rather than the minimum half sentences everyone else has to serve of their longer sentences.
.

 

[Zlatan]

I certainly don't have unswerving faith in him, but I'm certain it's time to give him the chance. If he's right, great, we all win. If he's a disaster you'll be proved right. Anything is better than the utterly corrupt Tory governments we've been suffering, try this example:

The practice of charging extra for paying by credit cards has long been objectionable. So from next Saturday the 13th, charges for using a credit card will be banned by law.

The government's HMRC which has long charged extra for using a credit card has, two weeks in advance of the new law, now banned credit card payments of tax in order to avoid the effects of the new law by making life difficult for us. In other words, a law for us but a different one for them.

It's just like the prison sentences given to MPs and Lords who used the expenses system to steal on a grand scale. They only served a quarter of their very short sentences, rather than the minimum half sentences everyone else has to serve of their longer sentences.
.

Again I cant help but agree when compared to the corrupt govt we seem to have now.
But surely why cant a reasonable policy for us all be championed by someone along lines of Makron in France? I suspect the reason for that is Blair ???

We seem to be offered either extreme of the political spectrum, both of which are intrinsically faulty by nature. We need a centralist stand capable of compromise and accommodation for all.

 

[flecc]

Again I cant help but agree when compared to the corrupt govt we seem to have now.
But surely why cant a reasonable policy for us all be championed by someone along lines of Makron in France? I suspect the reason for that is Blair ???

We seem to be offered either extreme of the political spectrum, both of which are intrinsically faulty by nature. We need a centralist stand capable of compromise and accommodation for all.

I agree on how Blair messed up our politics, he did immense damage to that and indeed the country's international reputation. I also agree that a social democrat central position is desirable.

But perhaps a swing to the extreme of a truly left socialist government might lead us to follow with a truly centralist outcome? For too long we've had most parties pretending to occupy the central ground in their manifestos, but doing very different in government. The Conservatives letting their extremes of the 1922 committee hold sway, Labour letting and even encouraging Blair's tory stance, both have been utterly dishonest to the electorate, not intending what people voted for.

The bias has long been too far to the right, hence the corruption, endemic to all extremes. Now a swing to the far left that we've never experienced in Britain could bring outcomes educating the electorate into avoiding both extremes. That could only be good.
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[Woosh]

agree on how Blair messed up our politics, he did immense damage to that and indeed the country's international reputation.

he only followed the inevitable route.
His predecessors did the same. The first Iraq war wasn't justified anymore than the second one.
The problem is we are tied hands and feet to the USA's foreign policy.

 

[oldgroaner]

Between the words Soviet and Republics in USSR.
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That's rather in the nature of referring to "great" Britain!

 

[flecc]

he only followed the inevitable route.
His predecessors did the same. The first Iraq war wasn't justified anymore than the second one.

Absolutely true, particularly about the first Iraq war which started the whole tragedy.

But we didn't need to be tied to US foreign policy, we were strong enough to say no, and we still are. Doing that never did France any harm over many decades, indeed their anti-USA stance strengthened their nationalism. It's sad that Sarkozy in particular and also Macron now have softened that.
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[Woosh]

But we didn't need to be tied to US foreign policy, we were strong enough to say no, and we still are.

we need to protect Israel, there is no other way.

 

[anotherkiwi]

we need to protect Israel, there is no other way.

Colonialist France and Great Britain have a lot to answer for in that fiasco... If Israel didn't behave so badly they wouldn't need protection, jews christians and muslims lived in harmony for centuries all through the Middle East and North Africa after all...

 

[Woosh]

If Israel didn't behave so badly they wouldn't need protection,

standard of behaviour changes over time.
I think it has been changing for the better since the creation of Israel, albeit slowly.
Eventually, it will come a time that Israel won't need any special protection.

 

[flecc]

Eventually, it will come a time that Israel won't need any special protection.

When they've completed the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinan population by the continuing theft of all their land?

We should not be taking part in the protection of Israel, let them reap what they've sewn.

Jewish people lived in very large numbers in Palestine and all other Arabic countries in complete harmony throughout much of the last millennium, until the Zionists upset that on the flimsiest of excuses. They were and remain terrorists, not only creating the disgusting situation in Israel but making it impossible for Jewish people to remain living in all the other Arabic countries and indeed Iran, all of which they once happily occupied.
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[Zlatan]

I agree on how Blair messed up our politics, he did immense damage to that and indeed the country's international reputation. I also agree that a social democrat central position is desirable.

But perhaps a swing to the extreme of a truly left socialist government might lead us to follow with a truly centralist outcome? For too long we've had most parties pretending to occupy the central ground in their manifestos, but doing very different in government. The Conservatives letting their extremes of the 1922 committee hold sway, Labour letting and even encouraging Blair's tory stance, both have been utterly dishonest to the electorate, not intending what people voted for.

The bias has long been too far to the right, hence the corruption, endemic to all extremes. Now a swing to the far left that we've never experienced in Britain could bring outcomes educating the electorate into avoiding both extremes. That could only be good.
.

Great post Flecc. You should stand for election.( as was your later contribution)

 

[tillson]

That gave Corbyn little chance at the outset, and it was only ordinary people giving their approval to Corbyn by voting and public demonstrations of approval which forced those Blairite MPs to accept him. That's true democracy in action, the will of the people.
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That’s very true, and it has been quite an hilarious to see those MPs such as Chevette Cooper, who got astride the wrong horse, now shape-shifting into some kind of synthetic Corbyn supporter. That’s why I can’t and never will trust the Labour Party. I we knew what we were getting, I could make a decision but with Cooper & Thornbury Etc, I just don’t know what they are about.

At least with the Conservatives, we know they are a bunch of self serving wanchors and we can act accordingly to mitigate the personal damage.

 

[Woosh]

When they've completed the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinan population by the continuing theft of all their land?

You have to go back to the Balfour declaration. Israel was created to suit the then imperial powers, British, French, German, Russian and of course the burgeoning powerful American Jewish population. Israel needed land and still do, and yet, no possible financial deal. The only way as I see is for Israel enemies to accept Israel's right to exist and peaceful settlement. That is coming slowly.

 

[flecc]

That’s why I can’t and never will trust the Labour Party, I just don’t know what they are about.

At least with the Conservatives, we know they are a bunch of self serving wanchors and we can act accordingly to mitigate the personal damage.

We've now had 38 continuous years of Conservative and pseudo-Conservative governments, often without any real Opposition, and that's politically very unhealthy, hence much of what is wrong currently.

For that reason I want to see radical change to break out out of this mould, the word mould meant in both senses.
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[flecc]

You have to go back to the Balfour declaration. Israel was created to suit the then imperial powers, British, French, German, Russian and of course the burgeoning powerful American Jewish population. Israel needed land and still do, and yet, no possible financial deal. The only way as I see is for Israel enemies to accept Israel's right to exist and peaceful settlement. That is coming slowly.

Wrong on all counts.

This is what Balfour wrote:

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

Note he spoke of a home for the Jews in Palestine, not the Jews stealing Palestine and renaming it Israel. He was also specific about the preservation of Palestinian civil rights and that of Jews in other countries. Under the auspices of Zionism the Israelis have breached all of those to an obscene extent and endangered Jewish people resident in Arab lands to the extent of driving them out.

Judaism is a religion, not a nationality, as the Jews themselves accept. That doesn't give them any right to a land of their own and there is no right for Israel to have existed.

Archaeology has exposed the falsity of their biblical claims. Now genetics dating as far back as nearly 4000 years has confirmed that, also showing that the Arabic peoples of the area have the best claim to the lands that were once Canann and later Syria-Palestinia.
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[Woosh]

Wrong on all counts.

This is what Balfour wrote:

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

Note he spoke of a home for the Jews in Palestine, not the Jews stealing Palestine and renaming it Israel. He was also specific about the preservation of Palestinian civil rights and that of Jews in other countries. Under the auspices of Zionism the israelis have breached all of those to an obscene extent.

Judaism is a religion, not a nationality, as the Jews themselves accept. That doesn't give them any right to a land of their own and there is no right for Israel to have existed.

Archaeology has exposed the falsity of their biblical claims. Now genetics dating as far back as nearly 4000 years has confirmed that, also showing that the Arabic peoples of the area have the best claim to the lands that were once Canann and later Syria-Palestinia.
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that's diplomatic speak.
He and the British establishment knew very well that troubles will start as soon as people start to immigrate.
Just look at brexit.

 

[Zlatan]

We've now had 38 continuous years of Conservative and pseudo-Conservative governments, often without any real Opposition, and that's politically very unhealthy, hence much of what is wrong currently.

For that reason I want to see radical change to break out out of this mould, the word mould meant in both senses.
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Fair comment and true but why do current labour think having extreme left in charge will pose a viable challenge when all we,ve known is far right. Surely a more moderate organisation would look more attractive, especially to a body of people who,s attitudes over years have drifted right. Its the norm that as countries become more affluent, more rich folk, more aspiring to be rich etc etc then views will move more to the right. People see themselves as much mote successful, affluent and hence ( rightly or wrongly) more politically to the right...so what do labour give us...one going in opposite direction.
IMHO it has been a massive mistake and missed opportunity. A more moderate, centralist party could have run away in last election, just as Makron did in France, a country which most accurately reflects our own political views.

 

[flecc]

that's diplomatic speak.
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Which doesn't alter the facts.

The Jews have no legitimate historical or genetic exclusive claim to the land they've named Israel.
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[Woosh]

Surely a more moderate organisation would look more attractive, especially to a body of people who,s attitudes over years have drifted right. Its the norm that as countries become more affluent, more rich folk, more aspiring to be rich etc etc then views will move more to the right.

I would have thought the opposite is right.
When people get richer, they will want to improve the environment and welfare.
Their view moves to the left.

 

[Woosh]

Which doesn't alter the facts.

The Jews have no legitimate historical or genetic exclusive claim to the land they've named Israel.
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they are legitimised by UN resolution 181.