Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldtom]

Corruption must be the biggest growth industry in the UK judging by the wholly discredited honours system.

How can this ever be deemed acceptable in fair and decent society?

company-boss-david-ord-tory-donor-receives-knighthood

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Poll results have never convinced me of the independence of those who conduct them so I take this set of results with a pinch of salt, even though I suspect the answers in this instance may well be a true indication of the current opinions among the political parties:



Tom

 

[oldtom]

News coverage of the drop in car sales heads up the media's output this morning, much of it including the now, de rigueur, propaganda about diesel exhaust output being the most evil destroyer of people and the planet ever.

This is the BBC's coverage:

business-42571828

Jon Snow draws attention to the tax havens so beloved of the royals, the tories, corporate Britain, the pop stars and all the other celebrities with so much money they don't know what to do with it, other than deliberately avoid paying tax on it:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=675118152876031

Then, we can look at corporate America where Bernie Saunders has quite a bit of support from some of the richest people in US society:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10156642561582908

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Understanding greed, corruption and capitalism, the latter of those being both the essence and product of the first two, is the common religion practised by the oafs who vote tory and do not wish to be part of a group of nations with a common, vested interest.

Franklin D Roosevelt recognised the danger for democracy posed by the influence of powerful, wealthy people while he was President in the early 1940s. Roosevelt made many great speeches as President and this one showed remarkable sagacity, assuredness and confidence in his own ability to face down the elite of corporate America:



Tom

 

[Zlatan]

Understanding greed, corruption and capitalism, the latter of those being both the essence and product of the first two, is the common religion practised by the oafs who vote tory and do not wish to be part of a group of nations with a common, vested interest.

Franklin D Roosevelt recognised the danger for democracy posed by the influence of powerful, wealthy people while he was President in the early 1940s. Roosevelt made many great speeches as President and this one showed remarkable sagacity, assuredness and confidence in his own ability to face down the elite of corporate America:

View attachment 22878

Tom

Yep, Russia showed the world how to govern fairly.

 

[oldtom]

There is a brilliant explanation of why the 'Brexidiots' are terrified of another referendum in an article today by the author of the AAV website, Thomas G Clark:

how-to-corner-brextremists-into.html

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Yep, Russia showed the world how to govern fairly.

Go on then read us the lesson........ are you about to say Socialism is worse than Capitalism?.
Tell me this much, when was Russia Socialist?
Which is the form of Government you appear to be about to get?

 

[flecc]

when was Russia Socialist?

Between the words Soviet and Republics in USSR.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I thought the second S was for Stalin?

 

[Zlatan]

Go on then read us the lesson........ are you about to say Socialism is worse than Capitalism?.
Tell me this much, when was Russia Socialist?
Which is the form of Government you appear to be about to get?

Well yes Russia and Nazi Germany weren't really extremes of socialism at all , were they OG.
But in a way I agree its probably time to let a totally untried form of government have a go....policies of raising corporattion tax, business tax, IHT, CG and income tax with the idea I giving it all away should certainly be given a try.
And before you come back with all the BS about post WWII labour government having tried this method, well that's not quite true. They were giving away Marshall Plan money for all the deserving problems, like housing, NHS and schools...whilst stupidly Germany invested in business, commerce and industry. ( And to be fair to the Germans they received less in the plan than we did...)
So which government was stupid then OG ?
And tell me one successful socialist government in entire history. Like Tory campaigns of late 70s said.
" Labour isn't working"
Never has. Never will with Corbyn's policies..
If we had a believable, viable centralist Labour government I,d agree with you, but the excuse for labour currently in HoC would without doubt bankrupt us way quicker than any Brexit could .

I cant imagine a worse scenario than Labour under Corbyn in power overseeing Brexit. Complete nightmare.

 

[oldtom]

As we progress further along the rocky road to 'Brexit', some MPs and MEPs seem to be having second thoughts as this article describes. 'Squeaky bum' time has arrived earlier than I expected:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/06/brexit-may-urged-to-stay-in-single-market-by-20-british-meps?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=259453&subid=12594608&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

Tom

 

[oldtom]

No jail time for tory/UKIP scumbags when they are found guilty of corrupt practices?

bob-spink-guilty-election-fraud-ukip-tory-mp-council-electoral-nomination-ballots-conservative-a8143891.html

Tom

 

[Woosh]

And tell me one successful socialist government in entire history.

Communism (in China and Vietnam) seems to work.

 

[tillson]

Communism (in China and Vietnam) seems to work.

Don’t forget Pol Pot’s Cambodia and all the Year Zero stuff. That was a highly successful regime and gave everyone a much needed sense of purpose.

 

[Zlatan]

Communism (in China and Vietnam) seems to work.

Both those places are single party " democracies" consequent ly neither are democracies. And BTW China is only doing well financially not socially. A visit there proves the case especially when you consider hours worked, average wages and poverty. Examine the treatment of young females in china and then tell us its a successful regime.
Besides I said tell me a successful socialist government..China is neither.
I,ll give my assessment of Vietnam after visiting it in February. Should be warm and windy, plenty of windsurf hire centres and since they relaxed rules on foreign investment ( foreigners can now buy property) might be worth a try Charters..( Its rumoured foreigners must purchase with gold but might be urban myth, I,ll let you know on my return)

 

[Zlatan]

The process in France over last couple of years has demonstratedaccurately the place socialism has attained.
A previously socialist MP who distanced himself from the mainstream socialist attitudes of Mitterrand and Hollande professing himself to be ( his description) a liberal centralist ( since 2015, to get into power) has managed to rally together the support of both the underprivileged and the wealthy , with policies attempting to help both. Makron's rise to power has virtually destroyed socialist parties in France. Pre 2015 socialist party represented a strong majority. They are barely represented now. The trouble is our nearest political entity to Makron is Blair..enough said. Had we not had Blair in 97 or he hadn't behaved as he did we would now have a centralist labour government representing our now right shifting society.
Blair is the only reason our current barmy extreme left Corbyn lead labour party exists. Anybody who thinks right wing press are stopping Corbyn has not read his policies and has no idea about the consensus of opinion in our country. Its exactly why May is still in power.

 

[Zlatan]

Perhaps Robdon could explain which part of above post is wrong. Its actually ( almost) factual.
Do you disagree with my assessment of left wing in France or my anology between UK and France..?
Or perhaps you are a Blairite ?
Or did you ( as I suspect) read who had posted and hit disagree???

 

[Woosh]

Both those places are single party " democracies" consequent ly neither are democracies.

A strict or idealistic interpretation of democracy is not workable at any place nor any time.
Once you accept that 'democracy' is relative, then the USA's version of democracy giving us President Trump is no better than the Vietnamese version.
Another example of democracy in name only is the 'will of the people' not holding a second referendum.

 

[flecc]

Perhaps Robdon could explain which part of above post is wrong. Its actually ( almost) factual.
Do you disagree with my assessment of left wing in France or my anology between UK and France..?
Or perhaps you are a Blairite ?
Or did you ( as I suspect) read who had posted and hit disagree???

Sorry Zlatan, but I strongly disagree with your last sentence:

Anybody who thinks right wing press are stopping Corbyn has not read his policies and has no idea about the consensus of opinion in our country. Its exactly why May is still in power.

The media did huge damage to Corbyn by constantly playing on the opposition of Blairite Labour MPs to Corbyn.

That gave Corbyn little chance at the outset, and it was only ordinary people giving their approval to Corbyn by voting and public demonstrations of approval which forced those Blairite MPs to accept him. That's true democracy in action, the will of the people.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Fair enough Flecc, I dont see it quite like that but understand your reasoning. Without right wing press propoganda Corbyn ( IMHO) would be viewed ( by majority, not Corbyinites) in exactly same way.
Perhaps Corbynites are equally indoctrinated. A few people I know have unswerving faith in his ability, I see that as misguided.