Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
our economy is quite likely still reliant on cheap credit for another generation.For more credit?
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And probably longer...There is way too much encouragement for folk to borrow money, its put forward as the norm..even today it does not have to be. My kids seem only youngsters I know who,d rather drive about in a cheap car they own than an expensive one on credit. They are a minority, especially I their age group. Perverse sort of way society needs folk in debt...but not too much.. A chap I know was high up in a very big furniture chain. His policy was to encourage his underlings to take out car loans, credit and mortgage. He always used to say a hungry salesman sells more and cant leave. Its called financial bondage. Kids should be taught to avoid it. They aren't, the entire establishment promotes credit.
No such thing as zero credit. I,m not sure if its still case but not many years ago Porsche finance made more money than Porsche Cars financing their own products, but it almost bankrupt them...story goes without radical changes in production, leaving behind hand built specialisation, and the success of the Boxster Porsche would have gone.
Finance and the Boxster kept them alive..
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For starters - it would help if you could take a little more care when posting and put the end of quotation (") where it needs to be - you missed the end one out from the first quote and it makes life difficult (I added it in above - and put in a spare line to make things clear - no problem you're welcome).
Next - the people 'at the bottom' are the very people who will gain from more free trade. Thats how life works. Less regulations and more free trade - works every single time. Leave people to trade - stop putting barriers up and let people decide what they want and don't want. Less government. Less money spent on regulations.
That's the essence of this thing.
That's part of the reason people voted for it. They don't like being told what to do - who they can buy stuff from - or money being taken off each transaction by the government (or anybody else). Freedom. It's a simple idea. And really hated by many. But the people who MOST benefit from this - are the poorest.
Just look at Africa. States that try Socialism always fail. States that allow free trade - start to pick up. Tanzania is a classic example. There are many many more.
The answer is not government handouts and NGOs splashing their cash around - which always ends up in the hands of the elite - the answer is get the government OUT of the way and let people trade with each other. Freely.
Understand this and you start to understand how come Brexit won - against all the odds - against every 'expert' - because people naturally like the idea of being free - look at Iran right now - look anywhere - people do not like being told what they can do - what they can wear - who they can trade with - etc.
Where to start?. Your arguement that people want freedom is a good place. You are correct, in group psychology 101, the guiding principle is that every group seeks to maximise its freedom to operate by RESTRICTING the freedom to operate by all other groups. Its true in the family, the workplace , the social club, between sections of society and countries.
We need rules , we need laws, not to protect the strong, those groups ,can take care of themselves, but to protect the weak.
Whenever I see someone shouting for the rights and freedoms of others , I ask myself the question who benefits?...
In recent years two events standout .. the Arab Spring and the recent Brexit and again I ask myself the question who benefits?
Not quite, it was actually a story of two separate parts. Porsche had started dabbling in the stock market with surplus earnings and rapidly found that far more rewarding than the car side, eventually accruing a fortune equal to over £4 billions, far more surplus than their specialised car production would ever make.
The other part was as you've said, the car side losing money until they changed their manufacturing practices. With their accrued fortune and financial accumen they would never have been bankrupt overall, but the car side could have shut down, just as other famous names making "different" cars on a small scale did. SAAB for example, after many twists and turns and GM failing to rescue them so giving up.
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Ordinary people benefit. Like with food. Food, once we get out of that ridiculous EU Ag Policy WILL BE CHEAPER - so will all sorts of other stuff. If you focus on the CONSUMER rather than the producer things become way more easy to understand. It's the consumer - the ordinary person in the street that will benefit. It's the current established producers who are making all the fuss - because they will experience more competition - and producers DO NOT LIKE THAT. They fight to make monopolies - to keep competition out. Both Labour and Torys are guilty of this. BREXIT WAS A BREAK FROM THE NORM.
Just saw this - which I think I'll include here - just for the record:
World Bank:
Gross domestic product 2016 of 10 largest economies (trillions of US dollars)
1 United States 18.6tn
2 China 11.2tn
3 Japan 4.9tn
4 Germany 3.5tn
5 United Kingdom 2.65tn
6 France 2.47tn
7 India 2.26tn
8 Italy 1.86tn
9 Brazil 1.8tn
10 Canada 1.53tn
Interesting.
Well i am happy to note that your second point is in total concurrence with my principle from psychology 101. What is a monopoly but an attempt to restrict the freedom of others.
In regard to your third point , if you divide the the totals by the populations of each country, you get a more representative figure.
In regard to your first point about food, I have more to say. Every product can be made cheaper and worse, just as it can be made more expensive and better. It takes real expert skill to make it better and cheaper. Would the british consumer be better off mentally, physically if they spent more on food of better quality and less on transport and housing? Would the british people be happier if the food was produced by sustainable means thus increases the probability that it will continue to exist. Whatever the faults in the EU CAP, it has been a major success in ensuring that farmers remained in agriculture, the land was not poisoned,and the food is of good quality. I dont care if the "race to the bottom" is in colour tvs or hifis with ever lowering prices driving out producers, but I do care when it means no food or poisoned food. The EU traceability standards from field to fork, ensure that what the consumer gets is what they asked for and not some facsimile. These standards cost. They cost money to set up and police. In the "freedoms " touted, the rights of the consumer and citizen are removed and the monopolies strengthened... That is the principle of unrestricted free trade.
Decades ago Alan Sugar, fresh from his success with amstrad computers, was reported to have said, "I am a trader, if there was a market in atomic weapons I'd be there"... It was both tongue in cheek and a put down to the computer nerds who were seeing him as an icon. .. his point being there is no morality in the market place.
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Good post flecc.. I believe the Boxster was (is) manufactured at the old Saab plant in Finland. Boxster was gaining popularity as Saab declined. Work force expertise was realised by Porsche and used..
Yes, the Boxster was a real winner for them, and their Macan and Cayenne are doing well too. With their updated manufacturing they are apparently making over £14,000 per car of clear profit, amazing when producing nearly a quarter million cars a year.
Other mass manufacturers can only dream of such profits.
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You really ought to grow up and stop believing all the propaganda in those comics you read.
The government is perfectly well equipped to spin every economic statistic without you trying to create fake news through your rabid 'capitalism is good' diatribe with multiple capitalisation.
'Ordinary people benefit'? You should be ashamed to come out with rubbish like that but you're a dyed-in-the-wool tory so I suppose you have no shame, no humanity and your only interest is based on an 'I'm all right Jack' ideology.
Perhaps you should take stock and have a long, hard look at yourself. A Scots chap wrote these word over 200 years ago and they were wise counsel then and remain so today:
“O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion.”
Tom
The ultimate freedom is Anarchy and that is what we will achieve with Brexit, I see you still haven't grown out of throwing in the odd little snide remark either.
Your ideas of free trade are really a belief in the right to exploit others, and you attempt to hide evil intentions behind high sounding words.
Brexit won because the people fell for the sort of lies you express here on a regular basis.
As to this
"the answer is get the government OUT of the way and let people trade with each other. Freely.
Only a complete fool would imagine that that isn't a recipe for disaster, exploitation and corruption.
We should start a Boxster appreciation society ! Only thing is the damned thing is so good and now so cheap second hand it was one ( of many) factors that killed our kit / track car industry. ( except big players)
I built my first Westfield 7 in 1987...at time you really could build a car nothing could get near on track for the money. That was still case upto second hand 3.2 Boxsters appearing on market sub £10k...Cars I was building simply couldn't compete.( was building my own version of 7 by 2000ish ,built Zetec, Pinto, Fiat Twin Cam, Renault 16v cars but fastest I built was Blackbird and R1 engined...but to be honest by about 07 customers were better off buying second hand Boxsters...Along with SVA etc made building more trouble than it was worth..so stopped . Was only a part time interest, hobby, business..built some fast cars tho...damaged a few too...Never built a Hayabusa one...( borrowed one a couple of years ago) incredible on track..painful on road. What an engine tho.
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How far off-topic (and how often) does a poster need to be before some intervention occurs? I refer to the troll that has haunted this thread for months.
Tom
Tom
Saw this headline today and thought, 'How is this newsworthy?' Has it not always been the case?
parasites-invade-houses-of-parliament
Tom
parasites-invade-houses-of-parliament
Tom
Have spoken to some of my friends at Canterbury hospital. These doctors and nurses voted Leave just because Boris promised £350 million extra per week to be spent on the NHS.
They are fed up that Boris has admitted that the NHS won't get this money and the current NHS crisis is aggravated because of a lack of funds and loss of many skilled staff who have left the UK to return to their home EU countries because of Brexit,they would all like to reverse their vote but have no opportunity.
The NHS is 50,000 nurses down.
This government should stop messing around with this stupid Brexit experiment and start running the country,as others have said they don't have the bandwidth to do everything,the NHS should be a priority.
Hunt will be the next to quit,he is clearly fed up being the whipping boy.
KudosDave
If you have been keeping abreast of the political news via the tory propaganda rags recently, you may wonder how they differentiate between the offensive behaviour of various despicable MPs.
The independent blogger, Thomas G Clark, of AAV fame, explains the situation for you:
the-searing-tory-hypocrisy-over-people.html
Tom
The independent blogger, Thomas G Clark, of AAV fame, explains the situation for you:
the-searing-tory-hypocrisy-over-people.html
Tom
I note that the pink tory scumbag, B-liar, is poking his nose into domestic politics again, probably trying to re-establish himself as a player at the heart of UK politics.
Remembering that he is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of British soldiers and probably a number, running into millions by now, across the middle-east and Afghanistan, I cannot in all conscience understand how he is allowed to walk the streets when the ICC at The Hague has dealt with several other late 20th century war criminals.
A hugely decorated American soldier had this to say about war and folk singe-cum-social commentator Woody Guthrie also had some thoughts on the matter:
"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.”
Major General Smedley D. Butler
The tory party, intent on destroying our relationship with our European neighbours and equally intent on destroying the NHS and every last bastion of publicly-owned enterprise in the UK, is prepared to pay the Americans millions, probably billions of dollars just so that the UK has the means to destroy men, women and children around the world alongside the American war machine.
Those who support the tory party need to ask themselves and their MPs where that money is coming from.
Tom
Remembering that he is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of British soldiers and probably a number, running into millions by now, across the middle-east and Afghanistan, I cannot in all conscience understand how he is allowed to walk the streets when the ICC at The Hague has dealt with several other late 20th century war criminals.
A hugely decorated American soldier had this to say about war and folk singe-cum-social commentator Woody Guthrie also had some thoughts on the matter:
"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.”
Major General Smedley D. Butler
The tory party, intent on destroying our relationship with our European neighbours and equally intent on destroying the NHS and every last bastion of publicly-owned enterprise in the UK, is prepared to pay the Americans millions, probably billions of dollars just so that the UK has the means to destroy men, women and children around the world alongside the American war machine.
Those who support the tory party need to ask themselves and their MPs where that money is coming from.
Tom
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