Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldtom]

The liar-in-chief of the tory party has lied today about the homelessness figure. The tory propaganda sheets will not publish her lies but you can read it in 'The Canary':

theresa-may-lied-parliament-country-pmqs-today

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Are the cracks in the tory parliamentary party beginning to appear?

This is this evening's news from the HofC:

View attachment 22472

It's a start!

Tom

Meaningful as in "Constructively Ambiguous statement of non binding intent?"

 

[SHAN]

If Brexit gets too much for you (leave or remain), may I recommend Radio 3. Light news and soothing music. Better than Prozac. (Allegedly)

 

[Kudoscycles]

4 votes won......do we call that 'an overwhelming vote for common sense'......combined with 'regulatory alignment' and what the EU are going to offer as a trade deal.....we are heading for a soft Brexit,maybe no Brexit.
Theresa May made a mess of this commons vote,just as she made a mess of the recent GE and not getting the DUP involved in the EU deal....she is not good at politics,more blunders ahead.
Sacking Steven Hammond from the vice-chair will only harden the resolve of the Remainers and cause others in the Tory party to act in the best interest of our country.
Pathetic Daily Mail!!!!!
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

The Gutter Press seems to have divided on Brexit!
Daily Express
"
BREXIT BEGINS: May demands ‘deep & special partnership’ between Britain and EU after split
THERESA May will thank EU leaders for reaching a "fair settlement" that will allow Brexit trade talks to begin within weeks as she attends a crunch EU summit.

Daily Mail
"
Humiliated Theresa May heads to Brussels for crucial summit as pro-EU Tory rebels boast about taking 'control' of Brexit process after defeating the government and winning a vote on the final deal"

Isn't it nice when the enemies of the Public are falling out?

 

[oldtom]

From the evil people who perpetuate fascist propaganda, keeping alive the traditions of their despicable forerunners, this is how they have couched the democratic vote in parliament last evening for the delectation of the brainwashed scum that buys their rag:


Speaking of despicable scum, here is the view of self-aggrandising tart and expenses cheat, Nadine Dorries, standing up for the far-right of the fascist party and wailing against democracy:


These disgusting tories really do believe they can do whatever they please unchallenged. Those who vote for them need to look to their conscience and ask some serious questions of their own moral code.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

'Open 'Britain' has re-drafted the 'Daily Mail' front page to portray a truer picture of how decent human beings perceive last night's vote in the Commons:



The brainwashed fools who believe the country is best served by lying, cheating, self-serving, fascists would do well to understand what is really going on in the tory party. Here is some insight:



Meanwhile, all is not harmonious on the Emerald Isle:



Top figures from Northern Irish society have called on the Irish Prime Minister to help stop Brexit - warning that the UK's split from the European Union is "offensive and unacceptable".

In a letter sent to Leo Varadkar, more than 200 people from the world of sport, the arts, business, community work and the legal sector say Brexit "threatens to reinforce partition on this island".


Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

Although I am delighted that Theresa May/David Davis are now answerable to parliament,it may not change the 'take it or leave position'...the following makes it obvious why....


The British parliament will be confronted with a ‘take it or leave it’ choice on the Brexit divorce deal, if MPs vote after October 2018, according to a leading MEP.

Danuta Hübner, a Polish MEP, who chairs the European parliament’s constitutional affairs committee, argues it would be too late for British parliamentarians to have a meaningful say on the final treaty after October 2018 because formal negotiations would have already been completed.

EU negotiators have long said Brexit negotiations must be completed by October 2018 to allow time for the ratification of the treaty before the UK’s departure day on 29 March 2019. Asked if October 2018 was the final deadline to influence the agreement, Hübner said yes.

Because Davis and May have spent so much time wasted to date,it looks like if parliament reject the May/Davis deal then there is not sufficient time to renegotiate a parliament modified deal,we would then crash out.
But yesterdays vote should ensure that whatever deal is placed before parliament M/D should make sure that it is a deal that will get through the commons vote,with the mood of the house I see that as us staying in the single market and customs union.
In the event of crashing out how does that leave the irish border issue.???

KudosDave

 

[Woosh]

4 votes won......do we call that 'an overwhelming vote for common sense'......combined with 'regulatory alignment' and what the EU are going to offer as a trade deal.....we are heading for a soft Brexit,maybe no Brexit.

last night vote was just an exercise to see if the government can be defeated. The result is clearly not. A win of 4 won't hold if the subject is more important,the tories will win on more important points, unless they lose a few more by-elections from now to then.
As for what sort of brexit the tories want for this country, I think we are heading for a soft brexit.

 

[flecc]

In the event of crashing out how does that leave the irish border issue.???

The EU would treat it as a hard border and probably insist that was enforced where their wider interests were involved.

But no doubt those living in the RoI and NI would keep it soft for themselves and their transactions with each other.

So in summary, a pragmatic border.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Other EU ministers think the same....

EU will not renegotiate Brexit deal if UK parliament rejects it, says Luxembourg PM
Xavier Bettel, the prime minister of Luxembourg, has said that if theBrexit deal agreed by the British government gets rejected by parliament, the EU will not be willing to renegotiate. These are from the Financial Times’ Mehreen Khan.

KudosDave

 

[flecc]

EU will not renegotiate Brexit deal if UK parliament rejects it, says Luxembourg PM

I'm quite sure that's true. When David Cameron did his tour of EU leaders to try to get a better deal for the UK, the way in which they all rebuffed him showed very clearly that they are fed up with the UK and our stroppy unco-operative attitudes.

They aren't in a mood to make any concessions, hence the intransigence of Michel Barnier who is working to their uncompromising instructions.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

last night vote was just an exercise to see if the government can be defeated. The result is clearly not. A win of 4 won't hold if the subject is more important,the tories will win on more important points, unless they lose a few more by-elections from now to then.
As for what sort of brexit the tories want for this country, I think we are heading for a soft brexit.

The danger is that Davis/May and the 35 Tory bastards keep negotiating for a hard Brexit ,which by the mood/discussions in the house is not acceptable to parliament. Quite frankly I dont know what parliament will vote ,between a rock and a hard place.
If May/Davis fight against the bastards and come up with an economy led Brexit then it will go easily through parliament. Liam Fox and rest of the world trade deals would then be irrelevant.
Woosh....dont you think last nights vote important?....I think it was one of the most important votes in parliament,it was really about who is sovereign,the government or parliament,parliament won....civil wars have been fought over similar.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

I'm quite sure that's true. When David Cameron did his tour of EU leaders to try to get a better deal for the UK, the way in which they all rebuffed him showed very clearly that they are fed up with the UK and our stroppy unco-operative attitudes.

They aren't in a mood to make any concessions, hence the intransigence of Michel Barnier who is working to their uncompromising instructions.
.

Do you think that the deal they will offer the UK, involves staying in the single market and/or customs union? I certainly think it will involve keeping their standards,probably still answerable to the ECJ. If we want people movement control it will be subject to EU control.
David Davis will be told what he can and cant do and we will agree to it.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

It is obvious from the following that no trade deal can be included in the deal considered by the EU in October 2018. Even David David has admitted that the framework of a deal could take more than 12 months from today,so the UK will be voting on a deal without any trade deal included.

The British government is making a last-minute diplomatic push to persuade the EU to publicly and explicitly state its willingness to hold talks on post-Brexit trade before March next year.

A draft statement due to be signed off by EU leaders on Friday, along with comments from senior officials and diplomats in Brussels, suggest substantive talks can only start in spring, once the EU has published its own plan for the future.

The Brexit secretary, David Davis, has insisted he expects the “substantive” outlines of a trade deal to be settled within a year, and the British government is keen to avoid the perception that negotiations are again being delayed by Brussels.

It has been engaging in a last-minute round of telephone diplomacy to persuade the EU to make clear at a summit this week that at least some preliminary talks on trade can start immediately in the new year.

The success of the British push was in doubt on Wednesday afternoon, however, as EU diplomats lined up to insist that anything substantive would require clarification of the UK government’s vision of the future. “The onus is on them, not on us,” said one EU diplomat.

The commission remains concerned that it does not yet have sufficient understanding of what kind of deal the UK actually wants. Theresa May’s cabinet will hold a substantive discussion next Tuesday about the government’s preferred “end state” for negotiations.

EU member states expect further discussions on the transition period, and other outstanding issues from the first phase of divorce talks, to take up most of their time in the first months of 2018.

A “political declaration” about the broad outlines of a future trade deal could then be agreed before Brexit day in March 2019 – but the details would have to be hammered out during the transition period.

I thought this was the opposite that Davis has previously said,remember he said that the 'EU needs us more than we need them' and a trade deal 'would be a cinch'.....ummm

KudosDave

 

[flecc]

Do you think that the deal they will offer the UK, involves staying in the single market and/or customs union? I certainly think it will involve keeping their standards,probably still answerable to the ECJ. If we want people movement control it will be subject to EU control.
David Davis will be told what he can and cant do and we will agree to it.
KudosDave

Definitely keeping to their standards and we will want that anyway to continue current trading. We'll just have to accept that means some ECJ jurisdiction.

The Irish border solution envisaged means that a single market and customs union will in effect still exist to some degree, though not named as such.

Whatever we agree to will be a collection of compromises and I don't see it being remotely like that the Brexit Leavers had in mind. Only crashing out without a deal would satisfy them, any deal the EU agree to won't.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Sorry to seem pessimistic, but I can only see the talks collapsing onto chaos and a hard brexit resulting.

We don't know what we want, and we don't have a clue as to what they are willing to give us.

And to be frank they don't know what sort of deal they can sell to their own people, any more than we do!
Plus they can't lose in the long term if Brexit is a disaster, it will suit them as we are now a competitor, so there really is no incentive from their point of view for bending over backwards to help us.
Then we have the right wing press calling anyone who questions anything to do with Brexit traitors to the Brexit voters.
The Editor should be jailed for contempt of the Democratic process.

When you add that ALL of our politicians are utterly incompetent.

All we can expect is disaster.

 

[Woosh]

The danger is that Davis/May and the 35 Tory bastards keep negotiating for a hard Brexit ,which by the mood/discussions in the house is not acceptable to parliament. Quite frankly I dont know what parliament will vote ,between a rock and a hard place.
If May/Davis fight against the bastards and come up with an economy led Brexit then it will go easily through parliament. Liam Fox and rest of the world trade deals would then be irrelevant.
Woosh....dont you think last nights vote important?....I think it was one of the most important votes in parliament,it was really about who is sovereign,the government or parliament,parliament won....civil wars have been fought over similar.
KudosDave

I fear that parliament sovereignty is still very much second to party lines and the tories still have more seats than other parties. In such state of play, we need the tories to lose maybe 10 seats to change the destination of brexit.
The worst scenario is the hard brexiters insist on participation in europol, euratom, single market access without conceding at all on the role of the ECJ, ECHR and FOM. They know that the EU is their mirror image on intransigence.

 

[Kudoscycles]

From the group 'Best for Britain'.....

“The headlong rush to an extreme Brexit without an opposition is now over. Around the country campaigners, unions, MPs and community groups rose up and said enough is enough,” said Eloise Todd of the group Best for Britain. “Theresa May and her ministers now need to listen … Next year’s meaningful vote means no Brexit is a credible option, and if that is what is best for Britain and its people when the government comes back with a deal that is the course we should take.”

I just cannot see that in 6 months Davis/May are going to produce a deal that satisfies all the 309 who have just voted and the hardline Tory Brexiters. The recent vote has emboldened those Tories who abstained or those who voted out of loyalty,the rebels havent really suffered,so there may be more than 309.
Everybody says that crashing out would be a disaster,so maybe May will have to stay in,possibly a second referendum or open vote in parliament .
The way that Brexit has evolved is just not what most thought they were voting for and many are just sick of it....an open vote in the house with May recommending Remain would expose all the Tory bastards....perhaps the Guardian would have photos of them all on the front page,with the caption 'these were the fascists who wanted to sell away our country for their own selfish petty power'.
KudosDave

 

[Danidl]

The EU would treat it as a hard border and probably insist that was enforced where their wider interests were involved.

But no doubt those living in the RoI and NI would keep it soft for themselves and their transactions with each other.

So in summary, a pragmatic border.
.

Flecc, i dont think so... The EU would have to have the hard border, it would be on the same location as the borders were placed in 1922.
Irish people on both sides , would indulge in the petty smuggling as they did and to a some extent still do.. there have been differences in fuel duties , which have allowed it continue.
The EU would probably subvent the irish republics loss of income , certainly in the short term. The price for which would be stronger eu force protection of the border,, The pragmatic NI folk, might then well demand their border poll.
However. I expect there to be wider distruption on the UK mainland with food shortages, plummeting currency etc. Maybe and hopefully not a civil war, but rioting and supression. There will be a lot of discontented people and they will vent it on the civil authority... Leavers who cannot understand why that was promised has not come to pass and remainers who have found their views wharted at every juncture.