on the one hand I'm quite chuffed that the dup is spoiling a possible brexit deal, it makes it ever more apparent to the ever so bloody slow electorate what brexit is really about, and sentiment is, glacially, shifting back to remain as reality dawns. on another level, have you ever bought anything in the grand bazaar in Istanbul? its a great place to learn the basics of negotiation. it comes down to actually being able to walk away. because, European citizen one is and not needing counterfeit goods, one can. the vendor OTOH has to sell at any price, having very little of any intrinsic value to offer. were the Turkish vendor in this negotiation and the eu, knows. bluster wont achieve anything. there's a reason why someone of may's character is trying to cut a deal at any cost, she knows the games up.
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
From the Express
"
EXCLUSIVE: Irish Government 'leaked draft Brexit deal to REMOVE May from Downing Street'
THE Irish Government deliberately leaked a deal already rejected by Theresa May in order to destabilise the Prime Minister’s Government and derail Brexit negotiations, according to prominent Brexiteer and Conservative backbencher Peter Bone."
Is there no depths they can't sink to? Now it's the fault of the Irish?
"
EXCLUSIVE: Irish Government 'leaked draft Brexit deal to REMOVE May from Downing Street'
THE Irish Government deliberately leaked a deal already rejected by Theresa May in order to destabilise the Prime Minister’s Government and derail Brexit negotiations, according to prominent Brexiteer and Conservative backbencher Peter Bone."
Is there no depths they can't sink to? Now it's the fault of the Irish?
No not miffed Tommie, I just have a different view on the issue. Mine is get tough with the DUP, not the EU on this issue.
As I observed earlier, it's only the DUP that is out of kilter with what is necessary, even with themselves. The EU are being accommodating, prepared to accept a flexible border when one might expect them to demand as hard a border as elsewhere.
And as I said, there's no excuse for the DUP attitude when there is already divergence between N.I. and the rest of the UK. If they had any sense they'd be pleased that they could have their own individual treatment, Scotland wasn't slow in saying "us too".
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I thought the DUP had been put up for sale for £1 billion, and I’m sure I then read that the Conservative party bought it. What’s the problem?
don't shoot the messenger, the DUP is right to point out future problems.
If the border is moved to the Irish sea, NI will be the area that wins big, then everyone will want the same, that advantage won't last.
On the other hand, if there is a hard border between NI and the ROI, the block grant to NI will have to be increased. Only NI can benefit.
If the border is moved to the Irish sea, NI will be the area that wins big, then everyone will want the same, that advantage won't last.
On the other hand, if there is a hard border between NI and the ROI, the block grant to NI will have to be increased. Only NI can benefit.
are you suggesting that keeping the benefits of being in the EU are an advantage
You do realise we could all keep that.Brexit is starting to fall apart as people realise this.
Carwyn Jones (@fmwales) · Twitter
Said this yesterday.... (i've highlighted 3 words in bold)
We can not allow different parts of the UK to be more favourably treated than others. If one part of the UK is granted continued participation in the Single Market & Customs Union, then we fully expect to be made the same offer.
You'll notice he didn't say. We can not allow NI to suffer by being forced to remain within the Single Market and Customs Union, being forced to remain under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, and being forced to benefit from the influx of migrants needed to service their growing economy etc etc .... did he?
Its as if the vocabulary has changed over recent weeks to seeing the positive.
If Scotland, NI, Wales and London want it, why wouldn't the rest of England?
I am for retaining our membership of the customs union with the EU.are you suggesting that keeping the benefits of being in the EU are an advantage
We can cope with a reduced access to the single market.
Ok..... so again I ask someone pro brexit, how you think this will actually work?
A precondition of the customs union is that the European Commission negotiates for and on behalf of the Union as a whole in international trade deals such as the World Trade Organisation, rather than each member state negotiating individually.
We'd also have to be under the ECJ.
That doesn't seem to fit with "leave means leave" "Brexit means Brexit" etc etc.
But the DUP don't want a hard border. They seem to have the perverse attitude of wanting a flexible border while not allowing that to be achieved.
And their actions are at odds with their own population who voted to retain membership of the EU, or at least want an open border to the EU's Southern Ireland.
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This old classic rears its head again.
(its from October 2016 - just in case anyone thinks this week's problem wasn't entirely obviously going to happen)
oh no wait, all the leave campain said this was project fear didn't they.
It was going to be easy solving this problem.
(its from October 2016 - just in case anyone thinks this week's problem wasn't entirely obviously going to happen)
oh no wait, all the leave campain said this was project fear didn't they.
It was going to be easy solving this problem.
There can be no doubt that more and more people have wakened up to the preposterousness of the tory government's feeble-minded attempt to railroad through this ill-conceived idea.
Full membership of the EU and a voice at the top table where we can contribute to the shape and direction of the United States of Europe is still the best deal in town.
Tom
How does Turkey work at present time?
we retain all the current FTAs and quotas without negotiating new ones for a while.
When we are OK with life outside the single market, we'll look farther afield.
You're right Tillson. The costs and troubles that N.I bring to the UK are all out of proportion to their size. They are under 2.8% of the UK population and the DUP 1st preference vote at the last election was under 0.5% of the UK electorate, yet from Ian Paisley to Arlene Foster they've always wanted to be the tail wagging the dog.
Time to dock the tail perhaps?
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IYou'll be keen to hand back the Billion pound bribe then?
After all promises were made, and look what good a promise from the DUP is!
May and the EU changed the name of this deal from 'regulatory divergence' to 'regulatory alignment' But nobody seems to understand the detail of this deal,the 35 Tory bastards seem to hate it,Anna Soubry seems to love it,so I suspect that I will like it,the nearest option to Remain.
It appears that the deal is similar to that offered to Ukraine.
Davidson,Sadiq Khan,Soubry all seem to like it,this seems a good compromise that most in the UK would support,so what is in the deal that stops it being rolled out to the rest of the U.K.???
As Soubry said its about time the Tory party started to act for the benefit of the whole UK not just for 35 ideological selfish Tory right wingers...Theresa May was a Remainer....I bet there are some heated arguments between May and Bone/IDS/Rees-Mogg....this appears a good opportunity to bring this Brexit nonsense to a start of the conclusion.
KudosDave
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So you want us to be like Turkey?
Your statement is slightly confused.
Turkey has a “customs union” for goods with the EU. It is not bound by the CAP (and it’s agricultural products are outside of the customs union), it doesn’t pay fees and there is no freedom of movement of people between Turkey and the EU.
Unfortunately, there is a catch – or rather, several of them. The Turkish customs union covers only goods, not services or finance. So a Turkish-style deal would be denying us a big part of the single market. What’s more, the quid pro quo of even this limited access is that Turkey has to follow the EU’s rules for the production of goods – without any say on what those rules are. A pattern should be familiar by now: to the extent that a country gets access to the single market, it has to follow the EU’s rules.
Turkey’s customs union with the EU – a key difference from the Norwegian or Swiss models – creates further problems. It requires Turkey to align its trade policy with the EU’s, seeking to cut free trade deals on goods with whomever Brussels makes deals.
The snag is that Turkey does not have any vote on which free trade deals the EU pursues and so no way of making sure they satisfy its interests. Nor do the EU’s trading partners necessarily have an incentive to open their markets to Turkey, as they can simply cut deals with the EU and get access to the Turkish market by sending goods to the EU and then on to Turkey. They have often delayed several years before signing trade deals with Turkey – meaning its businesses were at the back of the queue when it came to penetrating new markets.
It is only possible to understand such a bizarre arrangement when you realise that the Turkish customs union was intended as a stepping stone to full EU membership. It is not a good solution as a step away from EU membership. It would be even worse for Britain than the Norwegian or Swiss options.
Turkey is just one model where the UK still retains its membership of the customs union with the EU. We can do better than that.
By the way, we do not need 100% access to the single market.
By the way, we do not need 100% access to the single market.
Seems like Liam Fox is about to get his P45.
Bye-bye.
KudosDave
Bye-bye.
KudosDave
what's wrong with that? is it not what access to the market means?Just the half where we sell to them, but not the half where they sell to us?
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well apart from the fact that everything the UK buys / needs will suddenly be more expensive with no increase in income to compensate for it.
As a sweeping generalisation, we export services and import stuff.
Stuff we need.
54% of our imports into the UK came from other countries in the EU in 2016
And really do you think anyone at the EU is going to say, yes, you have access to our market, and we're happy for it not to be reciprocal.
Do you really think that would work?