Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

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The World has obviously gone mad.
Here we are trying desperately to get a worse deal under worse terms with the EU than we already had.
And the only reason so far advanced for doing this that passes even cursory scrutiny.
Is that it will protect Money Laundering and Tax evasion that the EU wants to clamp down on.
Come on someone come up with a rational reason for what is going on.
 
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PeterL

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The World has obviously gone mad.
Here we are trying desperately to get a worse deal under worse terms with the EU than we already had.
And the only reason so far advanced for doing this that passes even cursory scrutiny.
Is that it will protect Money Laundering and Tax evasion that the EU wants to clamp down on.
Come on someone come up with a rational reason for what is going on.
That was an engineered (not very well) post wasn't it. I'm not aware that Brexit or indeed the present Government, is in any way wanting, to see Tax evasion and Money laundering continue. Perhaps the sun is shining down there in Grimsby?
 

oldgroaner

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Really. The French / UK was very much seen as a means to defeat Germany and nothing to do with a ESU. DeGaulle made it very plain some years later that it would never happen. If it makes you feel any better you can remove the clearly attributed earlier quote and leave this: As Churchill urged a Franco-German partnership to lead his vision of a new Europe, he declared that Great Britain and the British Commonwealth, along with the US and USSR, should be “friends and sponsors” of the project. He did not talk of the UK becoming a member itself.
Here you are
Source John Danzig
n 1950, Churchill explained to Parliament why he didn't “at present” foresee Britain being, “a member of a Federal Union of Europe.” This was primarily because of Britain’s position, “at the centre of the British Empire and Commonwealth”, and, “our fraternal association with the United States of America.”

It was clear that Churchill’s opposition was not a principled one, but a practical one.

Crucially, in answering the question ‘Are you prepared to part with any degree of national sovereignty in any circumstances for the sake of a larger synthesis?' Churchill responded:

‘We are prepared to consider and, if convinced, to accept the abrogation of national sovereignty, provided that we are satisfied with the conditions and the safeguards… national sovereignty is not inviolable, and it may be resolutely diminished for the sake of all men in all the lands finding their way home together.’

Everything was to change during the course of the 1950s and 1960s, when it became clear that Britain’s Empire had finished and its Commonwealth was diminished.

In March 1957 the six nations of France, Italy, West Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg founded the European Economic Community (later to be renamed the European Union).

Four months later Churchill gave his last speech on Europe at Central Hall, Westminster. He welcomed the formation of a ‘common market’ by the six, provided that, “the whole of free Europe will have access.” He added, “we genuinely wish to join.”

In August 1961, Churchill wrote: “I think that the Government are right to apply to join the European Economic Community...”

Case Closed
 

oldgroaner

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That was an engineered (not very well) post wasn't it. I'm not aware that Brexit or indeed the present Government, is in any way wanting, to see Tax evasion and Money laundering continue. Perhaps the sun is shining down there in Grimsby?
So they didn't change to law to promote it then during the coalition Government?
Bt the way I live in Hull
 
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PeterL

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Here you are
Source John Danzig
n 1950, Churchill explained to Parliament why he didn't “at present” foresee Britain being, “a member of a Federal Union of Europe.” This was primarily because of Britain’s position, “at the centre of the British Empire and Commonwealth”, and, “our fraternal association with the United States of America.”

It was clear that Churchill’s opposition was not a principled one, but a practical one.

Crucially, in answering the question ‘Are you prepared to part with any degree of national sovereignty in any circumstances for the sake of a larger synthesis?' Churchill responded:

‘We are prepared to consider and, if convinced, to accept the abrogation of national sovereignty, provided that we are satisfied with the conditions and the safeguards… national sovereignty is not inviolable, and it may be resolutely diminished for the sake of all men in all the lands finding their way home together.’

Everything was to change during the course of the 1950s and 1960s, when it became clear that Britain’s Empire had finished and its Commonwealth was diminished.

In March 1957 the six nations of France, Italy, West Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg founded the European Economic Community (later to be renamed the European Union).

Four months later Churchill gave his last speech on Europe at Central Hall, Westminster. He welcomed the formation of a ‘common market’ by the six, provided that, “the whole of free Europe will have access.” He added, “we genuinely wish to join.”

In August 1961, Churchill wrote: “I think that the Government are right to apply to join the European Economic Community...”

Case Closed
Not really NO, it's Not!. Had it stayed the EEC I suspect we would still be there.
 
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Zlatan

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Sorry OG but, I prefer this version of events:

Historic misunderstanding underlies UK-EU relationship on Churchill anniversary
View attachment 22052

The irony of the Brexit decision is that it will mean a lot more EU on the UK’s agenda Read next Churchill ‘father’ of UK-EU mismatch Share on Twitter (opens new window) Share on Facebook (opens new window) Share on LinkedIn (opens new window) Save Save to myFT © Getty SEPTEMBER 19, 2016 Quentin Peel 368 comments Exactly 70 years ago, on September 19, 1946, Sir Winston Churchill delivered his famous speech in Zurich calling for the creation of “a United States of Europe”.

Britain’s wartime leader was revered across the continent for his role in the defeat of Nazi Germany, despite the fact that he had lost office as UK prime minister after the general election of 1945. His ringing call for reconciliation between France and Germany, and “the re-creation of the European family”, struck a chord for both the victors and the vanquished emerging from the devastation of two world wars. It inspired a European movement that led to the creation of the Common Market, and, ultimately, to today’s European Union.

“Churchill was called the father of ‘Europe’, and he said much to justify that label,” the British journalist and political commentator Hugo Young wrote in his seminal history of Britain and Europe. “But he was also the father of misunderstandings about Britain’s part in this Europe. He encouraged Europe to misunderstand Britain, and Britain to misunderstand herself.”

As Churchill urged a Franco-German partnership to lead his vision of a new Europe, he declared that Great Britain and the British Commonwealth, along with the US and USSR, should be “friends and sponsors” of the project. He did not talk of the UK becoming a member itself. “We are with Europe, but not of it,” he wrote in an earlier essay. “We are linked but not comprised.”

That ambiguity has haunted Britain’s relationship with its continental neighbours ever since, culminating in the UK referendum vote on June 23 for Brexit. First the UK refused to join in 1957, dismissing the negotiations for the Treaty of Rome as irrelevant. Then, when Harold Macmillan changed his mind, for fear of being left out of an economic success story, his membership bid was vetoed by France’s president Charles de Gaulle.

When Edward Heath finally succeeded in negotiating membership from 1973, it was seen by many as a defeat for UK exceptionalism, not a victory for European solidarity. Special Report Britain after Brexit How will the future look for the City, entrepreneurs, farmers, industry and from a political perspective? That British attitude is rooted in its imperial history — Churchill’s great passion — and a perception of British security, its interests and its diplomacy, as global, not narrowly European.

That feeling, along with resentment at the apparent roles of Germany and France in setting the European agenda, was a constant subtext to arguments in favour of Brexit. Yet, in spite of the centrality of strategic concerns to the intellectual UK debate on Europe, the subjects of foreign policy and security received scant attention during the referendum campaign. It was dominated instead by the debates on immigration and the economy.

“When foreign, security and defence policy was discussed . . . it was predominantly in terms of the costs and benefits to the UK of being a member of the EU,” says Richard Whitman, professor of politics and international relations at the University of Kent. “There was no substantive rehearsal of what the future EU-UK foreign and security policy relationship might be with the UK outside the EU.” It was a curious and alarming omission, given that such questions have always been at the heart of British historic hesitation about the EU.

For Churchill, as for the overwhelming majority of the British establishment in those early postwar decades, the British empire (and the Commonwealth that succeeded it) and the “special relationship” with the US, were the nation’s two most important strategic priorities. Nato was seen in London as much the most important alliance in Europe.

The Common Market, launched in 1957 by the Treaty of Rome, was seen as largely irrelevant to national security. Related article Europe spurns UK plea for Brexit guidance London’s attempts at secret talks get cold shoulder from Brussels In the Brexit camp, the idea of reviving an Anglosphere centred on the “special relationship” between London and Washington (especially in intelligence co-operation), and underpinned by close ties with the “old” Commonwealth of Australia, Canada and New Zealand, was very popular.

The question now is whether that romantic attachment to old imperial and English-speaking ties can be turned into an effective policy. The world in 2016 is very different from that of 1946. “The number one problem is that everyone else has moved on,” says Prof Whitman. “They have been pretty successful at forging ‘post-British’ foreign policy identities.”

Australia and New Zealand have refocused their foreign and security policy on the Asia-Pacific region, in which China is the dominant player. Canada has defined itself as an independent-minded US neighbour with increasingly strong Asia links to balance its traditional European ties. As for the US, successive regimes have made it clear that they see European integration as an essential part of western security policy and they have made no secret of wanting the UK to be a full-hearted player.

Opinion in Washington was overwhelmingly opposed to the idea of Brexit during the referendum campaign, with the exception of Donald Trump, the Republican presidential candidate. The expectation now is that the UK will throw itself with redoubled enthusiasm into beefing up the Nato alliance, to make up for its gradual withdrawal from the EU Leading members of the Brexit camp, such as David Davis, now the minister responsible for the exit negotiations, and Liam Fox, minister for international trade, have always based their arguments on the irrelevance of the EU to UK security, and the far greater importance of Nato.

The expectation now is that the UK will throw itself with redoubled enthusiasm into beefing up the Nato alliance, to make up for its gradual withdrawal from the EU. That could mean bolstering the UK military support for the Baltic republics, however much such a move might infuriate Moscow. For the rest of the EU, the prospect of UK withdrawal is a mixed blessing. On the one hand, the most serious and rapidly deployable military forces in the EU are those of Britain and France.

The UK has played a leading role in the anti-piracy operation off the coast of Somalia. British diplomats have also played an important role in establishing the European External Action Service — the EU’s own diplomatic arm. On the other hand, the UK has been increasingly hostile to the development of an EU defence policy, and to any weakening of intergovernmental control (and therefore a national veto) of security policy.

British departure from the EU would free the other member states to move forward with the creation of a stronger military operational and planning core, as favoured by France, and more support for a stronger European defence industry.

In the three months since the referendum vote, there has been no indication from Boris Johnson, the new foreign secretary, or prime minister Theresa May as to how they see the future focus of foreign and security policy. The truth is that the process of negotiating Brexit, and reorganising the UK-EU relationship for the future, is likely to dominate everything else on the British government’s agenda for years to come. “The UK’s key foreign policy priority for the foreseeable future will be sorting out its relationship with the EU,” says Prof Whitman. “We will have to devote far more energy and effort to the EU than to the wider world.
Excellent post. Well written too.
 

Zlatan

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Oh, yes the one with the long bridge and a clapped out Telephone system? City of Culture... apparently?
I believe for a while their phone system was independent of rest of nation.!! That must have taken its toll..
I went to college there for about 5 weeks many many years ago. The pastime over lunch was fighting other colleges... I left, went back to civilised Rotherham. ( a relative term you understand)

Only joking OG. I really like Beverley . Wonderful town. Thinking of moving there.
 

oldtom

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, how many brexiters do you expect your attitude will win over, OT?
There have now been numerous indications that, were the referendum to be re-run now that the electorate has a better grasp of the impending disaster about to befall them, the result would be reversed and then some!

Of course, your point is partly correct in that there is no hope of ever changing the mindset of dyed-in-the-wool racists, fascists, and the brainwashed ignoramuses who think they have made up for their lack of basic education by reading the mainstream press or watching the indoctrination programme news from the BBC or Sky.

The people of the UK will make the best of whatever situation occurs as they always have done but those who still imagine that there is something good to be had from divorcing ourselves from the EU are going to have very rude awakening if this nonsense is allowed to run to its conclusion.

I take it you won't be heading for Grimsby any time soon then?

Tom
 
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PeterL

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There have now been numerous indications that, were the referendum to be re-run now that the electorate has a better grasp of the impending disaster about to befall them, the result would be reversed and then some!

Of course, your point is partly correct in that there is no hope of ever changing the mindset of dyed-in-the-wool racists, fascists, and the brainwashed ignoramuses who think they have made up for their lack of basic education by reading the mainstream press or watching the indoctrination programme news from the BBC or Sky.

The people of the UK will make the best of whatever situation occurs as they always have done but those who still imagine that there is something good to be had from divorcing ourselves from the EU are going to have very rude awakening if this nonsense is allowed to run to its conclusion.

I take it you won't be heading for Grimsby any time soon then?

Tom
You completely failed to answer a very simple question, or ignored it. Probably the latter as it gave you another opportunity to indulge yourself with a repeat of your usual diatribe.That being the whole point of the original question?
 
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PeterL

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I believe for a while their phone system was independent of rest of nation.!! That must have taken its toll..
I went to college there for about 5 weeks many many years ago. The pastime over lunch was fighting other colleges... I left, went back to civilised Rotherham. ( a relative term you understand)

Only joking OG. I really like Beverley . Wonderful town. Thinking of moving there.
Have some fond memories of Rotherham, went to Sunday lunch at Grannies with a girlfriend, in the early sixties. Noted that North Yorkshire has the happiest people in the UK (Brexit affected apparently)
 
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Danidl

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Cant remember who responded to my deleted post, but anyhow..( think it was the ANother ,joke)
I deleted post because I,d quoted Tony Benn, sadly no longer with us and unablle to qualify why he felt EU was not democratic. I also think using his name in response to such down right barbaric posts we,ve seen recently unfair. ( Tom again)
Consequently I,ll offer my own explanation as to why I see EU as undemocratic.
Yes, every country within EU has to pass standards of democracy to join. Fine. Every country democratically elects MEPs..fine. Then each country appoints a commisioner to discuss rules, regs, directives,and laws. The new stuff they come up with is put to vote..
Now, the voting system is such that each country is weighted according to its ratio of population to EU at large. We get 13% , our population represents 13% of total.
Between 2008 and 2015 UK was on "winning side" of 65% of all voting matters. What that means is on 35% of all issues we had nothing to do with the decision being " enforced" upon us. ( The only contentious one was Gordon Brown and his arguments with bankers, it went against his wishes)
Now,I accept the above model ticks all boxes for democracy but does it attain its goal ? Government of the people, by the people. I dont think so and apparently neither did TB.
Our system in Westminster is not perfect but we are in charge there. ( well in theory)
Is it a democracy when matters affecting this country are voted in or out by 87% of voters who dont live here ? No. ( and yes , every other EU country could say similar)

We are guessing as to wishes of Winston Churchill, there is evidence suggesting he would have been on both sides. I think we should leave the dead out of it. ( That's why I deleted post, but unfortunately it was responded to rather quickly , about 20 seconds)
Zathlan, that is a pretty fair description on how the EU operates. There is one attribute however you inadvertently omitted. There is a principle of subsidiarity where if there are local eg national ways of doing things, then they continue, from small things such as square pin plugs in the UK, driving on left and right hand sides , bicycle regulations in NI , completely different election practices,., Different legal structures.., different social and medical practices Despite some of these being barriers to trade, the local arrangements have precedence. I would understand from some comments that a particular type of British press never choose to understand that...

In addition the separate states have always, and still have rights regarding accepting harmonised regulations where they cite critical national importance. There are opt out and opt in clauses in a lot of the legislation, put there at the request of the individual states, as a price for their support.

The genuine desire to legislate by concensus rather than guillotine motion is one of the distinguishing features of the EU Very tedious at times and flustrating but not dictatorial.
To paraphrase your question.. is it democratic that the legislation in the UK is decided by 51% of parliament, and the 49% have no say whatever. At least in the EU they will have some say.
 

anotherkiwi

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The irony is EU fishing quotas killed our fishing industry.
Over fishing and lack of fish killed your fishing industry as it did the French one.
 
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Danidl

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That was an engineered (not very well) post wasn't it. I'm not aware that Brexit or indeed the present Government, is in any way wanting, to see Tax evasion and Money laundering continue. Perhaps the sun is shining down there in Grimsby?
There are two assertions in this email, both can be examined on their merits
Assertion 1. Is the deal from the Brexit negotiations likely to be better or worse than the deal currently available as a member.... I would expect the answer is worse.

Assertion 2. That tax evasion by a wealthy group underlies the reason why Brexit as a policy is being persued. A case is being assembled that it could be so, just as cases could be assembled that it is USA involvement, Russian , Arab involvement etc etc... Just because a monumental mess has been created, does not provide evidence of a conspiracy, .. likewise it doesn't prove no conspiracy... Just continue to investigate facts
 

Danidl

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Over fishing and lack of fish killed your fishing industry as it did the French one.
Agreed.. technology, particularly the large factory ships , and in Ireland's case, the generous quotas to Spain. But there was also some silly loopholes in the fishing regulations, wherein small fish caught and killed in the nets could be dumped back at sea, retaining ones quota rather than been harvested for fishmeal or fish fingers...
Global warming will in future affect stocks, .. warm water retains less oxygen.
 
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Steb

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You completely failed to answer a very simple question, or ignored it. Probably the latter as it gave you another opportunity to indulge yourself with a repeat of your usual diatribe.That being the whole point of the original question?
well, that being the point you see in the original question. there is of course another side to that question. how many brexiters do you wish to win over? why should you be "winning them over"? do they live lives in which they are perennially being won over? being led by the likes of reese mog, boris et al, I'd say very likely.moreso considering the wafer thin veneer of lies and fake news the leave campaign relied on.
 

PeterL

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There are two assertions in this email, both can be examined on their merits
Assertion 1. Is the deal from the Brexit negotiations likely to be better or worse than the deal currently available as a member.... I would expect the answer is worse.

Assertion 2. That tax evasion by a wealthy group underlies the reason why Brexit as a policy is being persued. A case is being assembled that it could be so, just as cases could be assembled that it is USA involvement, Russian , Arab involvement etc etc... Just because a monumental mess has been created, does not provide evidence of a conspiracy, .. likewise it doesn't prove no conspiracy... Just continue to investigate facts
There's probably three in that case, I'm not sure whether or not the sun is shining in Hull or even Grimsby.
 

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