Brexit, for once some facts.

Zlatan

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Cant remember who responded to my deleted post, but anyhow..( think it was the ANother ,joke)
I deleted post because I,d quoted Tony Benn, sadly no longer with us and unablle to qualify why he felt EU was not democratic. I also think using his name in response to such down right barbaric posts we,ve seen recently unfair. ( Tom again)
Consequently I,ll offer my own explanation as to why I see EU as undemocratic.
Yes, every country within EU has to pass standards of democracy to join. Fine. Every country democratically elects MEPs..fine. Then each country appoints a commisioner to discuss rules, regs, directives,and laws. The new stuff they come up with is put to vote..
Now, the voting system is such that each country is weighted according to its ratio of population to EU at large. We get 13% , our population represents 13% of total.
Between 2008 and 2015 UK was on "winning side" of 65% of all voting matters. What that means is on 35% of all issues we had nothing to do with the decision being " enforced" upon us. ( The only contentious one was Gordon Brown and his arguments with bankers, it went against his wishes)
Now,I accept the above model ticks all boxes for democracy but does it attain its goal ? Government of the people, by the people. I dont think so and apparently neither did TB.
Our system in Westminster is not perfect but we are in charge there. ( well in theory)
Is it a democracy when matters affecting this country are voted in or out by 87% of voters who dont live here ? No. ( and yes , every other EU country could say similar)

We are guessing as to wishes of Winston Churchill, there is evidence suggesting he would have been on both sides. I think we should leave the dead out of it. ( That's why I deleted post, but unfortunately it was responded to rather quickly , about 20 seconds)
 
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oldtom

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I have made this point before, remainers have not made any other persuasive arguments why brexit should not happen.
What a stupid, perverse argument! It is not for the 'remainers' to demonstrate the benefits of EU membership - it is incumbent upon those who support the fascists, racists, tax avoiders and pig-ignorant to explain clearly what benefits there will be (and when!) by seceding from the EU.

The 'Brexidiots' have singularly failed to produce even one reason both before and since the referendum that might justify their case, NOT ONE REASON, yet you would wish to divert attention to the matter of a subverted form of democratic process, believing that somehow, the will of the people has been expressed and we must all just accept it and get on with things......is that a French thing?

Already, the good folk of Grimsby who now understand that they were lied to and realise that the bottom is likely to fall out of their world when post-'Brexit conditions kick in, are seeking special measures to protect their own interests.

brexit-exemption-sought-grimsby-seafood-736984.amp

So, how about London? How about NI? How about Scotland? Now, perhaps you might understand my comment about ignorance!

Are you going to visit Grimsby and explain to the 70% who voted to leave (and the intelligent remainder) that everything will be just fine after 'Brexit' and that there's no need for them to worry?

Tom
 

Woosh

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What a stupid, perverse argument!
you made my point better than I did, how many brexiters do you expect your attitude will win over, OT?
 

oldgroaner

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I didn't vote for brexit but I accepted the result, possibly because it does not matter to me as much as it does you and many million others.
Remainers tend to talk about economic consequences of brexit, and because brexit has not happened, that argument went nowhere, before the vote, after the vote, now and during any transitional period. I have made this point before, remainers have not made any other persuasive arguments why brexit should not happen.
All the current anti-brexit show is done by Brussels, do you expect the Eurocrates to win the brexiters over?
No I expect Brexit to go ahead and create social chaos leading to an eventual re entry into EU membership.
Sadly this is unavoidable (the chaos that is)
No one is going to change the mind of Brexit Voters are they? it has become an obsession beyond the powers of persuasion to change, as to question their decision is regarded as a mortal personal insult.
Literally events will either prove them right, or more likely result in a situation where even their cherished fantasy falls apart and they seek the truth.
Then is the time to try to persuade them.
 
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oldgroaner

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No I expect Brexit to go ahead and create social chaos leading to an eventual re entry into EU membership.
Sadly this is unavoidable (the chaos that is)
No one is going to change the mind of Brexit Voters are they? it has become an obsession beyond the powers of persuasion to change, as to question their decision is regarded as a mortal personal insult.

Literally events will either prove them right, or more likely result in a situation where even their cherished fantasy falls apart and they seek the truth.
Then is the time to try to persuade them.
[
 
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Zlatan

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Do explain the connection you have made between entirely disconnected events, as one could equally argue that the same sacrifice enabled right wing nutters with terrible attitudes make their points too.
Have a little respect for them rather than imagine they did what they did for reasons you know nothing about, and most likely care even less.
Good post OG. Well said.
 
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Zlatan

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For Tom
Automakers call for tariff-free trade between UK and EU after Brexit win

Think we could come to some agreement. A few fish for 250,000 Audis.

The irony is EU fishing quotas killed our fishing industry.
You are a sad individual Tom, not for the political views you hold ( I respect those) but the way you express them is disgraceful. Your post about Myra Hindley should be removed. It does not belong on here, quite where it does I have no idea.
 
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oldgroaner

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He also said but, not for GB.
Nice try Peter, unfortunately for you this is the truth
"
This from "the conversation.com"

Will the real Churchill please stand up
In 2009, UKIP courted controversy by depicting Churchill next to the words: “Say No to European Union” on its European election posters. In 2012, the Council of the EU drew almost as much ire for using a recording of Churchill’s 1946 Zurich speech, in which he declared: “We must build a kind of United States of Europe”, to open its video marking the EU’s receipt of the Nobel Peace Prize.

Since then, the war of words has intensified. In late 2013, the EU Commission president José Manuel Barroso, urged Britain, to embrace Churchill’s vision of a “United States of Europe”, prompting UKIP leader Nigel Farage to accuse Barroso of misrepresenting Churchill as a supporter of European political union.

Even the esteemed professor, Vernon Bogdanor, was caught in the crossfire after suggesting on Radio 4 that Churchill was open to the idea of Britain joining a United States of Europe. On hearing the broadcast, Conservative MP John Redwood demanded the BBC “apologise and publish a correction”.

With Europe, but not of it?
This use of his name for political posturing would have horrified Churchill, not just as a statesman but as an historian. Many claims about Churchill’s views on Europe, particularly those advanced by eurosceptics, quote selectively from his post-war speeches.


What would Churchill have made of UKIP? Lydia Fuller, CC BY
Worse, there is a frequent tendency to mis-attribute Churchill’s declaration that: “We are with Europe, but not of it” to one or other of these speeches. In actual fact, these words date from a Saturday Evening Post article Churchill wrote in 1930, in which he also first advanced his support for the idea of a “United States of Europe”.

I would point out that in 1940 Chuchill proposed that we merge as a nation with France
This from Wikipedia
"
Churchill and the ministers recognized the need for a dramatic act to encourage the French and reinforce Reynaud's support within his cabinet before it met again at 5pm.[1]

The final "Declaration of union" approved by the British War Cabinet stated that[1]

France and Great Britain shall no longer be two nations, but one Franco-British Union. The constitution of the Union will provide for joint organs of defence, foreign, financial and economic policies. Every citizen of France will enjoy immediately citizenship of Great Britain, every British subject will become a citizen of France.

Churchill and De Gaulle called Reynaud to tell him about the document, and they arranged for a joint meeting of the two governments in Concarneau the next day. The declaration immediately succeeded in its goal of encouraging Reynaud, who saw the union as the only alternative to surrender.

Sorry but there it is Churchill was not disposed in the way you imagine
 
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Zlatan

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Nice try Peter, unfortunately for you this is the truth
"
This from "the conversation.com"

Will the real Churchill please stand up
In 2009, UKIP courted controversy by depicting Churchill next to the words: “Say No to European Union” on its European election posters. In 2012, the Council of the EU drew almost as much ire for using a recording of Churchill’s 1946 Zurich speech, in which he declared: “We must build a kind of United States of Europe”, to open its video marking the EU’s receipt of the Nobel Peace Prize.

Since then, the war of words has intensified. In late 2013, the EU Commission president José Manuel Barroso, urged Britain, to embrace Churchill’s vision of a “United States of Europe”, prompting UKIP leader Nigel Farage to accuse Barroso of misrepresenting Churchill as a supporter of European political union.

Even the esteemed professor, Vernon Bogdanor, was caught in the crossfire after suggesting on Radio 4 that Churchill was open to the idea of Britain joining a United States of Europe. On hearing the broadcast, Conservative MP John Redwood demanded the BBC “apologise and publish a correction”.

With Europe, but not of it?
This use of his name for political posturing would have horrified Churchill, not just as a statesman but as an historian. Many claims about Churchill’s views on Europe, particularly those advanced by eurosceptics, quote selectively from his post-war speeches.


What would Churchill have made of UKIP? Lydia Fuller, CC BY
Worse, there is a frequent tendency to mis-attribute Churchill’s declaration that: “We are with Europe, but not of it” to one or other of these speeches. In actual fact, these words date from a Saturday Evening Post article Churchill wrote in 1930, in which he also first advanced his support for the idea of a “United States of Europe”.

I would point out that in 1940 Chuchill proposed that we merge as a nation with France
This from Wikipedia
"
Churchill and the ministers recognized the need for a dramatic act to encourage the French and reinforce Reynaud's support within his cabinet before it met again at 5pm.[1]

The final "Declaration of union" approved by the British War Cabinet stated that[1]

France and Great Britain shall no longer be two nations, but one Franco-British Union. The constitution of the Union will provide for joint organs of defence, foreign, financial and economic policies. Every citizen of France will enjoy immediately citizenship of Great Britain, every British subject will become a citizen of France.

Churchill and De Gaulle called Reynaud to tell him about the document, and they arranged for a joint meeting of the two governments in Concarneau the next day. The declaration immediately succeeded in its goal of encouraging Reynaud, who saw the union as the only alternative to surrender.

Sorry but there it is Churchill was not disposed in the way you imagine
Err. Is that post or pre Churchill sinking French fleet at Brest ??? Which sort of soured the relationship... I think Petain might have had a bit to say about all those shananigans ( that's French for BS you know)

The one thing we know about Churchill is he would have climbed into bed or shot anyone to win war. You cant base Churchills true feelings on his war time relationships. He supported communism for quite a while !! He did sleep with a loaded and cocked Webley under his pillow when in same building as Stalin though.
 
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oldgroaner

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The irony is EU fishing quotas killed our fishing industry.
Got news for you, "our fishing industry" was killed by the Cod Wars with iceland.
You are referring to the inshore fishing, which was very much a secondary source of food.

EU fishing quotas were supported, not opposed by the UK Government because the North Sea was being over fished.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/griffin-carpenter/eu-common-fisheries-policy-has-helped-not-harmed-uk-fisheries-0
 
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oldgroaner

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Err. Is that post or pre Churchill sinking French fleet at Brest ??? Which sort of soured the relationship... I think Petain might have had a bit to say about all those shananigans ( that's French for BS you know)
Would that be the Petain who was once a Hero and then a Traitor?
And of course it was pre the French Surrender when Petain took over, and collaberated with the Germans, Churchill coldn't risk the French fleet being passed into German Control, so gave them an ultimatum to surrender it or be destrioyed.
Do you have a point of some sort you want to make there?
 
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PeterL

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Nice try Peter, unfortunately for you this is the truth

Sorry but there it is Churchill was not disposed in the way you imagine
Sorry OG but, I prefer this version of events:

Historic misunderstanding underlies UK-EU relationship on Churchill anniversary
upload_2017-11-8_9-23-51.png

The irony of the Brexit decision is that it will mean a lot more EU on the UK’s agenda Read next Churchill ‘father’ of UK-EU mismatch Share on Twitter (opens new window) Share on Facebook (opens new window) Share on LinkedIn (opens new window) Save Save to myFT © Getty SEPTEMBER 19, 2016 Quentin Peel 368 comments Exactly 70 years ago, on September 19, 1946, Sir Winston Churchill delivered his famous speech in Zurich calling for the creation of “a United States of Europe”.

Britain’s wartime leader was revered across the continent for his role in the defeat of Nazi Germany, despite the fact that he had lost office as UK prime minister after the general election of 1945. His ringing call for reconciliation between France and Germany, and “the re-creation of the European family”, struck a chord for both the victors and the vanquished emerging from the devastation of two world wars. It inspired a European movement that led to the creation of the Common Market, and, ultimately, to today’s European Union.

“Churchill was called the father of ‘Europe’, and he said much to justify that label,” the British journalist and political commentator Hugo Young wrote in his seminal history of Britain and Europe. “But he was also the father of misunderstandings about Britain’s part in this Europe. He encouraged Europe to misunderstand Britain, and Britain to misunderstand herself.”

As Churchill urged a Franco-German partnership to lead his vision of a new Europe, he declared that Great Britain and the British Commonwealth, along with the US and USSR, should be “friends and sponsors” of the project. He did not talk of the UK becoming a member itself. “We are with Europe, but not of it,” he wrote in an earlier essay. “We are linked but not comprised.”

That ambiguity has haunted Britain’s relationship with its continental neighbours ever since, culminating in the UK referendum vote on June 23 for Brexit. First the UK refused to join in 1957, dismissing the negotiations for the Treaty of Rome as irrelevant. Then, when Harold Macmillan changed his mind, for fear of being left out of an economic success story, his membership bid was vetoed by France’s president Charles de Gaulle.

When Edward Heath finally succeeded in negotiating membership from 1973, it was seen by many as a defeat for UK exceptionalism, not a victory for European solidarity. Special Report Britain after Brexit How will the future look for the City, entrepreneurs, farmers, industry and from a political perspective? That British attitude is rooted in its imperial history — Churchill’s great passion — and a perception of British security, its interests and its diplomacy, as global, not narrowly European.

That feeling, along with resentment at the apparent roles of Germany and France in setting the European agenda, was a constant subtext to arguments in favour of Brexit. Yet, in spite of the centrality of strategic concerns to the intellectual UK debate on Europe, the subjects of foreign policy and security received scant attention during the referendum campaign. It was dominated instead by the debates on immigration and the economy.

“When foreign, security and defence policy was discussed . . . it was predominantly in terms of the costs and benefits to the UK of being a member of the EU,” says Richard Whitman, professor of politics and international relations at the University of Kent. “There was no substantive rehearsal of what the future EU-UK foreign and security policy relationship might be with the UK outside the EU.” It was a curious and alarming omission, given that such questions have always been at the heart of British historic hesitation about the EU.

For Churchill, as for the overwhelming majority of the British establishment in those early postwar decades, the British empire (and the Commonwealth that succeeded it) and the “special relationship” with the US, were the nation’s two most important strategic priorities. Nato was seen in London as much the most important alliance in Europe.

The Common Market, launched in 1957 by the Treaty of Rome, was seen as largely irrelevant to national security. Related article Europe spurns UK plea for Brexit guidance London’s attempts at secret talks get cold shoulder from Brussels In the Brexit camp, the idea of reviving an Anglosphere centred on the “special relationship” between London and Washington (especially in intelligence co-operation), and underpinned by close ties with the “old” Commonwealth of Australia, Canada and New Zealand, was very popular.

The question now is whether that romantic attachment to old imperial and English-speaking ties can be turned into an effective policy. The world in 2016 is very different from that of 1946. “The number one problem is that everyone else has moved on,” says Prof Whitman. “They have been pretty successful at forging ‘post-British’ foreign policy identities.”

Australia and New Zealand have refocused their foreign and security policy on the Asia-Pacific region, in which China is the dominant player. Canada has defined itself as an independent-minded US neighbour with increasingly strong Asia links to balance its traditional European ties. As for the US, successive regimes have made it clear that they see European integration as an essential part of western security policy and they have made no secret of wanting the UK to be a full-hearted player.

Opinion in Washington was overwhelmingly opposed to the idea of Brexit during the referendum campaign, with the exception of Donald Trump, the Republican presidential candidate. The expectation now is that the UK will throw itself with redoubled enthusiasm into beefing up the Nato alliance, to make up for its gradual withdrawal from the EU Leading members of the Brexit camp, such as David Davis, now the minister responsible for the exit negotiations, and Liam Fox, minister for international trade, have always based their arguments on the irrelevance of the EU to UK security, and the far greater importance of Nato.

The expectation now is that the UK will throw itself with redoubled enthusiasm into beefing up the Nato alliance, to make up for its gradual withdrawal from the EU. That could mean bolstering the UK military support for the Baltic republics, however much such a move might infuriate Moscow. For the rest of the EU, the prospect of UK withdrawal is a mixed blessing. On the one hand, the most serious and rapidly deployable military forces in the EU are those of Britain and France.

The UK has played a leading role in the anti-piracy operation off the coast of Somalia. British diplomats have also played an important role in establishing the European External Action Service — the EU’s own diplomatic arm. On the other hand, the UK has been increasingly hostile to the development of an EU defence policy, and to any weakening of intergovernmental control (and therefore a national veto) of security policy.

British departure from the EU would free the other member states to move forward with the creation of a stronger military operational and planning core, as favoured by France, and more support for a stronger European defence industry.

In the three months since the referendum vote, there has been no indication from Boris Johnson, the new foreign secretary, or prime minister Theresa May as to how they see the future focus of foreign and security policy. The truth is that the process of negotiating Brexit, and reorganising the UK-EU relationship for the future, is likely to dominate everything else on the British government’s agenda for years to come. “The UK’s key foreign policy priority for the foreseeable future will be sorting out its relationship with the EU,” says Prof Whitman. “We will have to devote far more energy and effort to the EU than to the wider world.
 
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oldgroaner

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Sorry OG but, I prefer this version of events:

Historic misunderstanding underlies UK-EU relationship on Churchill anniversary
View attachment 22052

The irony of the Brexit decision is that it will mean a lot more EU on the UK’s agenda Read next Churchill ‘father’ of UK-EU mismatch Share on Twitter (opens new window) Share on Facebook (opens new window) Share on LinkedIn (opens new window) Save Save to myFT © Getty SEPTEMBER 19, 2016 Quentin Peel 368 comments Exactly 70 years ago, on September 19, 1946, Sir Winston Churchill delivered his famous speech in Zurich calling for the creation of “a United States of Europe”.

Britain’s wartime leader was revered across the continent for his role in the defeat of Nazi Germany, despite the fact that he had lost office as UK prime minister after the general election of 1945. His ringing call for reconciliation between France and Germany, and “the re-creation of the European family”, struck a chord for both the victors and the vanquished emerging from the devastation of two world wars. It inspired a European movement that led to the creation of the Common Market, and, ultimately, to today’s European Union.

“Churchill was called the father of ‘Europe’, and he said much to justify that label,” the British journalist and political commentator Hugo Young wrote in his seminal history of Britain and Europe. “But he was also the father of misunderstandings about Britain’s part in this Europe. He encouraged Europe to misunderstand Britain, and Britain to misunderstand herself.”

As Churchill urged a Franco-German partnership to lead his vision of a new Europe, he declared that Great Britain and the British Commonwealth, along with the US and USSR, should be “friends and sponsors” of the project. He did not talk of the UK becoming a member itself. “We are with Europe, but not of it,” he wrote in an earlier essay. “We are linked but not comprised.”

That ambiguity has haunted Britain’s relationship with its continental neighbours ever since, culminating in the UK referendum vote on June 23 for Brexit. First the UK refused to join in 1957, dismissing the negotiations for the Treaty of Rome as irrelevant. Then, when Harold Macmillan changed his mind, for fear of being left out of an economic success story, his membership bid was vetoed by France’s president Charles de Gaulle.

When Edward Heath finally succeeded in negotiating membership from 1973, it was seen by many as a defeat for UK exceptionalism, not a victory for European solidarity. Special Report Britain after Brexit How will the future look for the City, entrepreneurs, farmers, industry and from a political perspective? That British attitude is rooted in its imperial history — Churchill’s great passion — and a perception of British security, its interests and its diplomacy, as global, not narrowly European.

That feeling, along with resentment at the apparent roles of Germany and France in setting the European agenda, was a constant subtext to arguments in favour of Brexit. Yet, in spite of the centrality of strategic concerns to the intellectual UK debate on Europe, the subjects of foreign policy and security received scant attention during the referendum campaign. It was dominated instead by the debates on immigration and the economy.

“When foreign, security and defence policy was discussed . . . it was predominantly in terms of the costs and benefits to the UK of being a member of the EU,” says Richard Whitman, professor of politics and international relations at the University of Kent. “There was no substantive rehearsal of what the future EU-UK foreign and security policy relationship might be with the UK outside the EU.” It was a curious and alarming omission, given that such questions have always been at the heart of British historic hesitation about the EU.

For Churchill, as for the overwhelming majority of the British establishment in those early postwar decades, the British empire (and the Commonwealth that succeeded it) and the “special relationship” with the US, were the nation’s two most important strategic priorities. Nato was seen in London as much the most important alliance in Europe.

The Common Market, launched in 1957 by the Treaty of Rome, was seen as largely irrelevant to national security. Related article Europe spurns UK plea for Brexit guidance London’s attempts at secret talks get cold shoulder from Brussels In the Brexit camp, the idea of reviving an Anglosphere centred on the “special relationship” between London and Washington (especially in intelligence co-operation), and underpinned by close ties with the “old” Commonwealth of Australia, Canada and New Zealand, was very popular.

The question now is whether that romantic attachment to old imperial and English-speaking ties can be turned into an effective policy. The world in 2016 is very different from that of 1946. “The number one problem is that everyone else has moved on,” says Prof Whitman. “They have been pretty successful at forging ‘post-British’ foreign policy identities.”

Australia and New Zealand have refocused their foreign and security policy on the Asia-Pacific region, in which China is the dominant player. Canada has defined itself as an independent-minded US neighbour with increasingly strong Asia links to balance its traditional European ties. As for the US, successive regimes have made it clear that they see European integration as an essential part of western security policy and they have made no secret of wanting the UK to be a full-hearted player.

Opinion in Washington was overwhelmingly opposed to the idea of Brexit during the referendum campaign, with the exception of Donald Trump, the Republican presidential candidate. The expectation now is that the UK will throw itself with redoubled enthusiasm into beefing up the Nato alliance, to make up for its gradual withdrawal from the EU Leading members of the Brexit camp, such as David Davis, now the minister responsible for the exit negotiations, and Liam Fox, minister for international trade, have always based their arguments on the irrelevance of the EU to UK security, and the far greater importance of Nato.

The expectation now is that the UK will throw itself with redoubled enthusiasm into beefing up the Nato alliance, to make up for its gradual withdrawal from the EU. That could mean bolstering the UK military support for the Baltic republics, however much such a move might infuriate Moscow. For the rest of the EU, the prospect of UK withdrawal is a mixed blessing. On the one hand, the most serious and rapidly deployable military forces in the EU are those of Britain and France.

The UK has played a leading role in the anti-piracy operation off the coast of Somalia. British diplomats have also played an important role in establishing the European External Action Service — the EU’s own diplomatic arm. On the other hand, the UK has been increasingly hostile to the development of an EU defence policy, and to any weakening of intergovernmental control (and therefore a national veto) of security policy.

British departure from the EU would free the other member states to move forward with the creation of a stronger military operational and planning core, as favoured by France, and more support for a stronger European defence industry.

In the three months since the referendum vote, there has been no indication from Boris Johnson, the new foreign secretary, or prime minister Theresa May as to how they see the future focus of foreign and security policy. The truth is that the process of negotiating Brexit, and reorganising the UK-EU relationship for the future, is likely to dominate everything else on the British government’s agenda for years to come. “The UK’s key foreign policy priority for the foreseeable future will be sorting out its relationship with the EU,” says Prof Whitman. “We will have to devote far more energy and effort to the EU than to the wider world.
So you too have done the UKIP and cut and pasted a 1930 remark against a 1945 one? ignoring his 1940 remark about merging with France?
He must have had a big change or heart over that mustn't he?
So? this is all of no present relevance is it? he was clearly keen enough on Europe to propose we merge with it wan't he? so your argument is simply spurious.

We can solve the relationship with the EU by cancelling Brexit.
We won't of course, but that is not all that important, simply a mistake that will self correct out of necessity.
In the end we will end up back as members of the EU, there really isn't an alternative in the long term is there?
 
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PeterL

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So? this is all of no present relevance is it? he was clearly keen enough on Europe to propose we merge with it wan't he? so your argument is simply spurious.

We can solve the relationship with the EU by cancelling Brexit.
We won't of course, but that is not all that important, simply a mistake that will self correct out of necessity.
In the end we will end up back as members of the EU, there really isn't an alternative in the long term is there?
Which bit of this do you find hard to understand?

As Churchill urged a Franco-German partnership to lead his vision of a new Europe, he declared that Great Britain and the British Commonwealth, along with the US and USSR, should be “friends and sponsors” of the project. He did not talk of the UK becoming a member itself. “We are with Europe, but not of it,” he wrote in an earlier essay. “We are linked but not comprised.”
 

oldgroaner

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Which bit of this do you find hard to understand?

As Churchill urged a Franco-German partnership to lead his vision of a new Europe, he declared that Great Britain and the British Commonwealth, along with the US and USSR, should be “friends and sponsors” of the project. He did not talk of the UK becoming a member itself. “We are with Europe, but not of it,” he wrote in an earlier essay. “We are linked but not comprised.”
The fact that you misquoted it by attaching it to comments he made 15 years later after he had proposed a union with France?
Come off it, Peter, that is what UKIP did, classic misquoting
Here's a litle more
"
As Churchill said in 1957:

We genuinely wish to join a European free trade area – and if our continental friends wish to reach agreement, I am quite sure a way can be found and that reasonable adjustments can be made to meet the essential interests of all.

Very "We are not part of it" eh?
 
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Zlatan

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Would that be the Petain who was once a Hero and then a Traitor?
And of course it was pre the French Surrender when Petain took over, and collaberated with the Germans, Churchill coldn't risk the French fleet being passed into German Control, so gave them an ultimatum to surrender it or be destrioyed.
Do you have a point of some sort you want to make there?
Basically we have no idea which side Churchill would support. At the start of all this his family said exactly that and requested he be left out of discussions. Perhaps we should grant them that wish..

On the Grimsby thing, obviously you are knowledgeable having that wonderful link to Grimsby...point here is Grimsby has been run down since 50's. ( has it actually changed since then) The VAG import I,d guess 100 times more revenue than Grimsby have ever exported . Their problem pales into insignificance at side of what Germany needs to do to bring in their Audis. ( and Mercs and BMWs and Porsche) We are Audis single biggest market. A deal needs to be done for BOTH sides, but especially theirs. Jaguar and Ford are watching !!! ( We shouldn't be buying Audis anyway, not when Jag XF / XE / Mondeo is available. Our country has always looked on German engineering and bought into their indoctrination. Get a Jag for goodness sake. Loads better.)
 
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oldgroaner

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Basically we have no idea which side Churchill would support. At the start of all this his family said exactly that and requested he be left out of discussions. Perhaps we should grant them that wish..

On the Grimsby thing, obviously you are knowledgeable having that wonderful link to Grimsby...point here is Grimsby has been run down since 50's. ( has it actually changed since then) The VAG import I,d guess 100 times more revenue than Grimsby have ever exported . Their problem pales into insignificance at side of what Germany needs to do to bring in their Audis. ( and Mercs and BMWs and Porsche) We are Audis single biggest market. A deal needs to be done for BOTH sides.
Absolutely AGREE and the best deal of all?
Roll of Drums.............
EU Membership of course.
 
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PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
The fact that you misquoted it by attaching it to comments he made 15 years later after he had proposed a union with France?
Come off it, Peter, that is what UKIP did, classic misquoting
Here's a litle more
"
As Churchill said in 1957:

We genuinely wish to join a European free trade area – and if our continental friends wish to reach agreement, I am quite sure a way can be found and that reasonable adjustments can be made to meet the essential interests of all.

Very "We are not part of it" eh?
Really. The French / UK was very much seen as a means to defeat Germany and nothing to do with a ESU. DeGaulle made it very plain some years later that it would never happen. If it makes you feel any better you can remove the clearly attributed earlier quote and leave this: As Churchill urged a Franco-German partnership to lead his vision of a new Europe, he declared that Great Britain and the British Commonwealth, along with the US and USSR, should be “friends and sponsors” of the project. He did not talk of the UK becoming a member itself.
 
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