Brexit, for once some facts.

[anotherkiwi]

Agreed.. technology, particularly the large factory ships , and in Ireland's case, the generous quotas to Spain. But there was also some silly loopholes in the fishing regulations, wherein small fish caught and killed in the nets could be dumped back at sea, retaining ones quota rather than been harvested for fishmeal or fish fingers...
Global warming will in future affect stocks, .. warm water retains less oxygen.

Everyone including the ecologists agree the quota system is wrong. The root problem in France and probably in the UK is that the public only eat very few species of fish and these species are under much stress. Fish that don't sell well are thrown overboard.

On the other hand the Spanish eat just about anything and species with low market value are transformed into paste or other byproducts.

 

[PeterL]

well, that being the point you see in the original question. there is of course another side to that question. how many brexiters do you wish to win over? why should you be "winning them over"? do they live lives in which they are perennially being won over? being led by the likes of reese mog, boris et al, I'd say very likely.moreso considering the wafer thin veneer of lies and fake news the leave campaign relied on.

I feel the start of a shaggy dog story coming on here (from you or Tom).

 

[PeterL]

Everyone including the ecologists agree the quota system is wrong. The root problem in France and probably in the UK is that the public only eat very few species of fish and these species are under much stress. Fish that don't sell well are thrown overboard.

On the other hand the Spanish eat just about anything and species with low market value are transformed into paste or other byproducts.

The good news and mainly attributable to the EU albeit some might say they caused it in the first place...

North Sea cod certified as sustainable — Marine Stewardship Council

 

[anotherkiwi]

The good news and mainly attributable to the EU albeit some might say they caused it in the first place...

North Sea cod certified as sustainable — Marine Stewardship Council

That is good news. The silly thing is that if fishing was restricted to periods and zones that don't harm reproduction cycle then quotas probably wouldn't be needed. Fishermen know when and where fish congregate to reproduce...

 

[flecc]

Is it a democracy when matters affecting this country are voted in or out by 87% of voters who dont live here ?

Yes it is. If you disagree, then we don't have democratic control here in the UK. After all, we in London are being taken out of the EU against our will by the majority of those in the UK who don't live in London.

I've explained this to you before, showing how the problem extends all the way down to parish level. What does "live here" mean? Is it in a household, parish, borough, region, country, a federation like Britain or the UK, a continent?

That's the intrinsic problem with democracy, there's a level of affiliation at which it fails, and that failure clearly includes the UK as much as the EU. An English born Londoner, I have more in common with the people of some mainland European cities than I have with many of the UK's peoples.
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[flecc]

We shouldn't be buying Audis anyway, not when Jag XF / XE / Mondeo is available. Our country has always looked on German engineering and bought into their indoctrination.

I take it you mean Germany's Mondeo? Most of all the manufacturing that Ford once had here in the UK is long gone, just one minor engine plant and some transmission ones left.
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[PeterL]

I take it you mean Germany's Mondeo? Most of all the manufacturing that Ford once had here in the UK is long gone, just one minor engine plant and some transmission ones left.
.

I think you will find that it is made in Spain or at least that's where they now come from. China also manufactures the Mondeo.

 

[PeterL]

Yes it is. If you disagree, then we don't have democratic control here in the UK. After all, we in London are being taken out of the EU against our will by the majority of those in the UK who don't live in London.

I've explained this to you before, showing how the problem extends all the way down to parish level. What does "live here" mean? Is it in a household, parish, borough, region, country, a federation like Britain or the UK, a continent?

That's the intrinsic problem with democracy, there's a level of affiliation at which it fails, and that failure clearly includes the UK as much as the EU. An English born Londoner, I have more in common with the people of some mainland European cities than I have with many of the UK's peoples.
.

And generally speaking, some might say, it matters not to the 'common man' who leads / rules or anything else - or does it?

 

[flecc]

And generally speaking it matters not to the 'common man' who leads / rules or anything else - or does it?

In which case what's wrong with Brussels, and why depart from the EU?
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I think you will find that it is made in Spain or at least that's where they now come from. China also manufactures the Mondeo.

I once had a Fiat 126, lifted the floor mat and everything was written in Polish and that was before Poland joined the EU...

 

[flecc]

I think you will find that it is made in Spain or at least that's where they now come from. China also manufactures the Mondeo.

Agreed the German parts are also assembled in Spain, where we get them from. Hardly "buy British" though, the point Zlatan was making.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

While we are on the EU and the car industry PSA is about to whittle down the Opel workforce in a bid to reach profitability. That is probably bad news for Vauxhall workers...

 

[PeterL]

In which case what's wrong with Brussels, and why depart from the EU?
.

The - or does it? was the clue. People are not unlike a flock of sheep who need a dog in the same field, not 500 miles away. I fully accept your description of 'progressive democracy' House - street - village - town - county etc. There is a limit however and it's been (over) reached.

 

[PeterL]

While we are on the EU and the car industry PSA is about to whittle down the Opel workforce in a bid to reach profitability. That is probably bad news for Vauxhall workers...

All true of course. However the car industry is on the cusp of massive change and that, in my view, means an opportunity is on the horizon. Germany and France will have trouble on their hands when their industries find themselves needing to downsize big time.

 

[anotherkiwi]

All true of course. However the car industry is on the cusp of massive change and that, in my view, means an opportunity is on the horizon. Germany and France will have trouble on their hands when their industries find themselves needing to downsize big time.

Renault may be OK as it is pushing hard for a conversion to electric.

 

[PeterL]

Renault may be OK as it is pushing hard for a conversion to electric.

Maybe, but the French are far more militant than even Old Tom might be - it will lose them time I suspect.

The only way, commercially, to handle this sort of thing is to have a completely new company as a start-up without the 'baggage' of a redundant workforce. OK Tom, not nice I totally agree... Tesla being a good example.

Where does the money come from for the start-up - Paradise of course.

 

[flecc]

I fully accept your description of 'progressive democracy' House - street - village - town - county etc. There is a limit however and it's been (over) reached.

A very long time ago probably, with "Great" Britain and the UK. The Romans had the right idea, not only separating off what is now England but splitting it in two, Britannia Superior (South) and Britannia Inferior (North).

Some might also think they got the nomenclature right.
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[Zlatan]

Zathlan, that is a pretty fair description on how the EU operates. There is one attribute however you inadvertently omitted. There is a principle of subsidiarity where if there are local eg national ways of doing things, then they continue, from small things such as square pin plugs in the UK, driving on left and right hand sides , bicycle regulations in NI , completely different election practices,., Different legal structures.., different social and medical practices Despite some of these being barriers to trade, the local arrangements have precedence. I would understand from some comments that a particular type of British press never choose to understand that...

In addition the separate states have always, and still have rights regarding accepting harmonised regulations where they cite critical national importance. There are opt out and opt in clauses in a lot of the legislation, put there at the request of the individual states, as a price for their support.

The genuine desire to legislate by concensus rather than guillotine motion is one of the distinguishing features of the EU Very tedious at times and flustrating but not dictatorial.
To paraphrase your question.. is it democratic that the legislation in the UK is decided by 51% of parliament, and the 49% have no say whatever. At least in the EU they will have some say.

Yes, I totally accept all that. However ,I am not that interested in others views and models of democracy. We have s model of it in UK which although far from perfect is a working model I am very happy with. Without doubt the model the EU adopts will , and already has begun to, replace the model I,m content with. You being happy with EU is fine but like wise me being happy with our UK one and not wanting another " model" should also be fine. I should not have to explain why I dont want the EU model. You did and voted accordingly. I didn't and voted accordingly. We never joined EU with a view to it becoming a USE , which it must we have now realised.
A 13% vote for matters in EU , even allowing for vetoes and the concepts you mentioned, is not the model of democracy I want. The UK model is fine. ( well as fine as is possible)
If it ain't bust...dont mend it.

On the Churchill/ TB opinions matter. We don't even know the stance of our opposition leader and he is alive, allegedly. How on earth can we expect to work out who the dead would support when the living dont know.??

 

[flecc]

Renault may be OK as it is pushing hard for a conversion to electric.

Maybe, but the French are far more militant than even Old Tom might be - it will lose them time I suspect.

Renault and Nissan are effectively one company, the industry knowing that the former calls the shots. Together and with their worldwide span of operation they are in a very strong place where e-cars are concerned.
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[PeterL]

A very long time ago probably, with "Great" Britain and the UK. The Romans had the right idea, not only separating off what is now England but splitting it in two, Britannia Superior (South) and Britannia Inferior (North).

Some might also think they got the nomenclature right.
.

Very good analogy, they understood the concept very well. But, it collapsed as an Empire, as they all do at some point in time. So it goes on and on... even in a small office environment - new broom and all that.