Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

Yes it is. If you disagree, then we don't have democratic control here in the UK. After all, we in London are being taken out of the EU against our will by the majority of those in the UK who don't live in London.

I've explained this to you before, showing how the problem extends all the way down to parish level. What does "live here" mean? Is it in a household, parish, borough, region, country, a federation like Britain or the UK, a continent?

That's the intrinsic problem with democracy, there's a level of affiliation at which it fails, and that failure clearly includes the UK as much as the EU. An English born Londoner, I have more in common with the people of some mainland European cities than I have with many of the UK's peoples.
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Flecc
I,m happy with our Uk model, why should anyone have right to force on me another level of democracy ( or layer ) which will in 10, 20,30 or 40 yrs time replace our model. You accept there are numerical failings in a democratic system but fail to see the larger the " union" the larger those failings. I do not want a 13% vote in EU thanks. I,m happy with UK democracy and all its faults.
You have no right to expect others to adopt what is a different model of democracy. Yes, by all means vote for which one but the fact is that vote was held last June and many like me felt the EU model of democracy was not desirable.
Being told EU model is fine etc etc etc has nothing to do with it. Its fine for you, I prefer ours.Thanks but no thanks.

 

[Woosh]

Crucially, in answering the question ‘Are you prepared to part with any degree of national sovereignty in any circumstances for the sake of a larger synthesis?' Churchill responded:

‘We are prepared to consider and, if convinced, to accept the abrogation of national sovereignty, provided that we are satisfied with the conditions and the safeguards… national sovereignty is not inviolable, and it may be resolutely diminished for the sake of all men in all the lands finding their way home together.’

I am not familiar with this bit of history but the phrase 'to accept the abrogation of national sovereignty, provided that we are satisfied with the conditions and the safeguards' reflects pretty much how many approach brexit. When they feel that the conditions and safeguards have much changed, then it easy to understand why they voted for brexit.

 

[PeterL]

Renault and Nissan are effectively one company, the industry knowing that the former calls the shots. Together and with their worldwide span of operation they are in a very strong place where e-cars are concerned.
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Again I agree, there is a but though. The workforce to make the parts and assemble an EV will be so much smaller so, whatever happens that means less people employed, in building cars. I suspect that the UK arm of Nissan in London will do well out of the changeover, not so Sunderland although they do seem to have a great productivity record - time will tell.

 

[oldtom]

That was an engineered (not very well) post wasn't it. I'm not aware that Brexit or indeed the present Government, is in any way wanting, to see Tax evasion and Money laundering continue. Perhaps the sun is shining down there in Grimsby?

Your lack of objectivity and inability to see any wrong in tory ethics is exceeded only by your stupidity with posts such as that one.

You need help!

Tom

 

[PeterL]

Your lack of objectivity and inability to see any wrong in tory ethics is exceeded only by your stupidity with posts such as that one.

You need help!

Tom

Did you say something there, Tom?

 

[flecc]

many like me felt the EU model of democracy was not desirable.

And I agree and have said so, while also pointing out that it is a temporary setup solely to achieve union. Once union is in place the European Commission and the European Council will vanish, job done, and the democratic European Parliament take over the higher level running. National legislatures will become State ones, and if the USA and some others are anything to go by, they'll have very much more power than now, bringing much more local governance.

Isn't that what you and I want?
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[Woosh]

There have now been numerous indications that, were the referendum to be re-run now that the electorate has a better grasp of the impending disaster about to befall them, the result would be reversed and then some!

it is not a clear cut.
If the right wing press go back to their series of refugees blocking the roads with trees so they can climb onto the trucks or corruption scandals somewhere in Southern Europe, your polls will reverse pretty damn quickly.

 

[PeterL]

And I agree and have said so, while also pointing out that it is a temporary setup solely to achieve union. Once union is in place the European Commission and the European Council will vanish, job done, and the democratic European Parliament take over the higher level running. National legislatures will become State ones, and if the USA and some others are anything to go by, they'll have very much more power than now, bringing much more local governance.

Isn't that what you and I want?
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Probably not, but it was very well put and clearly addresses 'our' fears.

 

[Zlatan]

And I agree and have said so, while also pointing out that it is a temporary setup solely to achieve union. Once union is in place the European Commission and the European Council will vanish, job done, and the democratic European Parliament take over the higher level running. National legislatures will become State ones, and if the USA and some others are anything to go by, they'll have very much more power than now, bringing much more local governance.

Isn't that what you and I want?
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Very well put and extremely attractive but actually no I dont think I do.
I can see the attraction of a USE and that it would probably become the worlds dominant superpower, sort of Orwellian in nature?? Would it be dangerous?? We signed up for the common market Flecc and would end up a 13% part of a massive super power, unloved and actually separate? ( Look at Eurovision results !!!)
No , I dont want that Flecc, which is exactly where staying will take us..a market place for mainland Europe to sell cars to. ( cars we cant actually afford) Always playing second fiddle to Germany.?
Nope lets give it a go on our own.

 

[Zlatan]

Your lack of objectivity and inability to see any wrong in tory ethics is exceeded only by your stupidity with posts such as that one.

You need help!

Tom

Can we organise a charity event to buy Tom a present, or send him.on holiday somewhere nice. He,s obviously depressed and sad about something. Surely we can do something to cheer the silly old bug4r up..

 

[PeterL]

Can we organise a charity event to buy Tom a present, or send him.on holiday somewhere nice. He,s obviously depressed and sad about something. Surely we can do something to cheer the silly old bug4r up..

I can think of a few places...

 

[flecc]

We signed up for the common market Flecc and would end up a 13% part of a massive super power, unloved and actually separate? ( Look at Eurovision results !!!)

Ah, so that's the reason for Brexit, dissatisfaction with our Eurovision results!

Seriously, we are not unloved within the EU, far from it. They like our money, they greatly value our defence contribution and they really don't want us to leave.

No , I dont want that Flecc, which is exactly where staying will take us..a market place for mainland Europe to sell cars to.

But some Brexiters have just been telling me we won't each be owning our own cars shortly, just getting lifts from autonomous ones and meanwhile sharing publicly available cars. Also telling me that this means a slump in car manufacturing.

Sorry Zlatan, but Brexiters arguments are rather like the £350 millions a week for the NHS which we never paid to the EU in the first place. Circular and contradictory arguments based on things that don't exist.
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[Zlatan]

I can think of a few places...

We might need to book a bus too.

 

[Zlatan]

Ah, so that's the reason for Brexit, dissatisfaction with our Eurovision results!

Seriously, we are not unloved within the EU, far from it. They like our money, they greatly value our defence contribution and they really don't want us to leave.



But some Brexiters have just been telling me we won't each be owning our own cars shortly, just getting lifts from autonomous ones and meanwhile sharing publicly available cars. Also telling me that this means a slump in car manufacturing.

Sorry Zlatan, but Brexiters arguments are rather like the £350 millions a week for the NHS which we never paid to the EU in the first place. Circular and contradictory arguments based on things that don't exist.
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Some are Flecc. Some. Likewise some remainers are letting side down..
The bus was biggest mistake leave made. Personally think it had no effect on results but I can see why some might think differently.

 

[PeterL]

But some Brexiters have just been telling me we won't each be owning our own cars shortly, just getting lifts from autonomous ones and meanwhile sharing publicly available cars. Also telling me that this means a slump in car manufacturing.
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Unfair but true. Hopefully a good circular start?

Yes there will indeed be less car ownership in the larger urban areas. But, there will be an increase in the rural area and very much so for the disabled / infirm. I do suspect that overall there will be less ownership. That won't have a particularly big impact on us here in the UK will it - some on here say we don't own anything anymore so we don't need the factories we do have? I don't think that by the way. However, I do think we are well placed to take advantage (earlier post) and even have a use for all that money stashed away in Paradise. Brexit could be very, very good for UK plc.

 

[flecc]

Unfair but true. Hopefully a good circular start?

Yes there will indeed be less car ownership in the larger urban areas. But, there will be an increase in the rural area and very much so for the disabled / infirm. I do suspect that overall there will be less ownership.

Agreed, 85% of our population live in cities and large towns with the remaining 15% in the country of course. So a reduction in urban ownership will overwhelm any country increase.

Among London residents the reduction in car ownership has become increasingly real for a number of years now.
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[PeterL]

We might need to book a bus too.

You might as well get rid of the evidence at the same time and put them on the NHS one - a trip to nowhere!

 

[oldgroaner]

Even for you - it was indeed.

Here we have an example of the thinking processes of a Conservative Voter and Brexit fan confronted with the evidence that Churchill said this
"
In March 1957 the six nations of France, Italy, West Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg founded the European Economic Community (later to be renamed the European Union).

Four months later Churchill gave his last speech on Europe at Central Hall, Westminster. He welcomed the formation of a ‘common market’ by the six, provided that, “the whole of free Europe will have access.” He added, “we genuinely wish to join.”

In August 1961, Churchill wrote: “I think that the Government are right to apply to join the European Economic Community...”

You are expecting us to believe that the man who first proposed the Formation of a "United States of Europe"had his forgotten his part in all that, and only though it was a Market we were joining when he knew very well that it was intended to develop into a Federal State?
You are quite clearly calling Churchill a fool

Truly you really cannot delude yourself with that, and it's amazing you would come out with such nonsense and describe my comments as nonsense?

I think you have made my point very will indeed.
It is impossible to get facts through the religious Blinkers Conservatives and Brexit voters wear.

 

[oldgroaner]

Oh, yes the one with the long bridge and a clapped out Telephone system? City of Culture... apparently?

Not many locals care, a typical comment was "If I wanted Culture I'd eat a Yoghurt"
But more frequently "Who's paying for this crap?"

 

[oldgroaner]

Even for you - it was indeed.

You really can't tolerate being wrong, can you?

And that is why Conservative and Brexit Voters are hard to convince of reality, they prefer lies.