Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

But leavers could easily say " Where are benefits from being in a united States Of Europe, we don't accept any positive arguments you,ve made about being in such a place" ( which actually I don't)

We all know full well remaining now will mean us being part of USE..
And look exactly where being in EU has got us...going down hill...

You have an amazing ability to see a reversed image of reality

Entering the Common Market saved us at a time when we were in sinking ship kept going by IMF loans.

We are going down hill because voters keep falling for the lies and promises of the Conservative Party, and they have ruined the country with downright incompetent ,and or evil policies , run down our industries, sold off our assets, and all the while laying the blame at the door of the EU.
The only place where any legislation that has benefited the people has originated from.

There is good news however, once Brexit is completed it will be harder for them to keep the Big lie going, and with luck their days of power are numbered.

Here is a piece of good advice for you, after Brexit takes effect, forgetting you voted for it and defended it so staunchly would be a wise move.
You won't be alone in doing that, not by a long way.

 

[PeterL]

I rarely listen to LBC but this chap does talk sense:

Tom

Not bad but, the measure, I suspect, is that you happen to agree with him?

How will you do in this I wonder?

http://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit/73230/brexit-quiz-how-much-do-you-know-about-the-eu

 

[oldgroaner]

I rarely listen to LBC but this chap does talk sense:

Tom

The United Kingdom, the second nation that Blew it's future on a bet, as Scotland once did.

 

[oldgroaner]

Not bad but, the measure, I suspect, is that you happen to agree with him?

How will you do in this I wonder?

http://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit/73230/brexit-quiz-how-much-do-you-know-about-the-eu

I failed on the following

What percentage of voters wanted to leave the EU in as I thought it was more.
Reverse of a Euro Bank note, as i have never clapped eyes on one
I have no idea where Boris Johnson' great Grandfather was born.
What area does the EU cover?

And does this appalling lack of knowledge reflect in any way shape or form of my understanding of what the EU represents?
These are, like your question not pertinent to the discussion about Brexit, are they?
Instead of asking daft questions to score points, how about revealing the answer to my entirely pertinent question.
What constitutes proof that Brexit will be a success?
No more messing around now.
My ignorance is revealed so enlighten me

What constitutes proof that Brexit will be a success?
A simple question, so answer it please.

 

[Woosh]

What constitutes proof that Brexit will be a success?

lower house prices, better saving rate, no tuition fees, more social housing.

 

[oldgroaner]

lower house prices, better saving rate, no tuition fees, more social housing.

But this is not proof is it, these are merely hoped for things, and frankly too little that if it arrives at all will be too late.
Nice ideas but, just more pie in the sky.

To make Brexit work we need something of the order of Roosevelt's New Deal, not just promises that are worthless.
And just how with their track record can you be expected to believe any of the Political Parties now?

 

[Woosh]

Nice ideas but, just more pie in the sky.

not pie in the sky. Brexit has not happened yet but you can project some likely consequences.
we have a housing crisis because we have to house 350,000 immigrants a year. If you reduce the number of immigrants, the pressure on housing is reduced.
If we have less FDI as a result of restricted access to the single market, then the interest rate will have to go up.
As we'll have fewer immigrants, more are needed to do their work, fewer of our youngsters will go to university. Reducing the number of students will allow a future government to fund properly further education.

 

[oldgroaner]

not pie in the sky.
we have a housing crisis because we have to house 350,000 immigrants a year. If you reduce the number of immigrants, the pressure on housing is reduced.
If we have less FDI as a result of restricted access to the single market, then the interest rate will have to go up.
As we'll have fewer immigrants, more are needed to do their work, fewer of our youngsters will go to university. Reducing the number of students will allow a future government to fund properly further education.

Except for the fact that the Government have already said the the number of immigrants isn't likely to change as they are still needed, and why should less of our children go to University?
Do you imagine that the punters are going to go for the idea that Jimmy or Michelle have to take on menial work and forgo University?
That will take a sea change in attitudes, and people didn't vote for Brexit to reduce their offspring's hopes of a life of more than menial work.
No way is that going to go down well, no matter how logical it seems on the surface.

 

[Woosh]

Except for the fact that the Government have already said the the number of immigrants isn't likely to change as they are still needed, and why should less of our children go to University?

the number of immigrants will have to come down because the economy is predicted to contract a little after brexit. Also, if legislation is introduced to incentivise employers to take on local labour, then there will be less pressure on housing.
As far as university education is concerned, I think we need more technicians than graduates.

 

[oldgroaner]

the number of immigrants will have to come down because the economy is predicted to contract a little after brexit. Also, if legislation is introduced to incentivise employers to take on local labour, then there will be less pressure on housing.
As far as university education is concerned, I think we need more technicians than graduates.

Whilst I don't disagree in principle these changes will not meet with the hopes and aspirations of the people who voted for Brexit and find it damages their kids expectations.
It's no good expecting them to think otherwise, and there is the little matter of timescale and who is going to create these new jobs?
None of this constitutes more than pious hopes, does it?
Too many assumptions

1. there will be less immigrants: yet to happen
2. New industries and Jobs Ditto
3. people will accept their kids taking menial jobs.... unlikely

All a bit tenuous to constitute proof, a possibility yes, but so is failure, and that is much more likely.

 

[Woosh]

people will accept their kids taking menial jobs.... unlikely

they do, OG.
If you look at the graph showing interest in brexit, you can see that most people would normally not think much about that question. Their concerns are more with their children getting a job, and less debts.
Have you watched Marr's history of modern Britain on BBC4? The last episode was the UK in the 30s.
I read his book when it came out about a decade ago, but watching it on TV is much better.

 

[Zlatan]

OG
Where,s your proof staying in EU will help. There is no proof either way, but we know if we stay in things will continue as last 20 years, which by your own admission we are in a mess.

 

[oldgroaner]

they do, OG.
If you look at the graph showing interest in brexit, you can see that most people would normally not think much about that question. Their concerns are more with their children getting a job, and less debts.

Then why are so many working class kids in University these days? and at great expense? someone must be paying, if it is the kids themselves then that makes it doubly certain

 

[Woosh]

Then why are so many working class kids in University these days?

competition to find a job when you are 18.
If you see how many PhDs taking on jobs that pay less than £25k a year, you can appreciate that the current student loan company is a nonsense.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG
Where,s your proof staying in EU will help. There is no proof either way, but we know if we stay in things will continue as last 20 years, which by your own admission we are in a mess.

Oh not again,
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-what-has-european-union-done-for-us-david-cameron-brexit-a6850626.html
Why do you keep on with maintaining things will get better when it is so obvious they won't, and we would have been even worse off if we had never joined the common market?

 

[Zlatan]

Oh not again,
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-what-has-european-union-done-for-us-david-cameron-brexit-a6850626.html
Why do you keep on with maintaining things will get better when it is so obvious they won't, and we would have been even worse off if we had never joined the common market?

That is impossible to know and totally hypothetical, which to be fair this entire discussion is..since we ARE leaving.
Labour are not offering an alternative, us arguing pro and cons of staying or leaving is pointless
..Unless Labour come to their senses in next month or so..

And no, I don't agree about common market being our saviour at all..without the measures taken by both Tory and,Labour governments between 1979 and 2005 we would be in dire straits now, in or out eu..
My region was absolutely devastated early 80,s...I remember seeing our main street with 2 out of 3 houses for sale..We can thank Keynesianism for any improvements...not the EU.

 

[oldgroaner]

That is impossible to know and totally hypothetical, which to be fair this entire discussion is..since we ARE leaving.
Labour are not offering an alternative, us arguing pro and cons of staying or leaving is pointless
..Unless Labour come to their senses in next month or so..

And no, I don't agree about common market being our saviour at all..without the measures taken by both Tory and,Labour governments between 1979 and 2005 we would be in dire straits now, in or out eu..
My region was absolutely devastated early 80,s...I remember seeing our main street with 2 out of 3 houses for sale..We can thank Keynesianism for any improvements...not the EU.

My my, you appear to have changed sides yet again, Had the banks not been allowed to run riot none of those losses would have happened, nothing whatever to do with the EU, and not something we can regard as a proud proof of anything except that UK politicians lost the plot and mayhem resulted which they are oh so slowly limiting the damage that they caused, robbing the public to cover the stupidity of the Elite, an now withe Brexit they are going to do the same thing all over again.

 

[Zlatan]

My my, you appear to have changed sides yet again, Had the banks not been allowed to run riot none of those losses would have happened, nothing whatever to do with the EU, and not something we can regard as a proud proof of anything except that UK politicians lost the plot and mayhem resulted which they are oh so slowly limiting the damage that they caused, robbing the public to cover the stupidity of the Elite, an now withe Brexit they are going to do the same thing all over again.

No I have not. I,ve maitained throughout country needs Tory financial policies with Labours commitment to social care. Its exactly the concept new labour promoted, unfortunately they developed a liking for wars and lying...bbut anybody who thinks socialist economic policies would see our country wealthy one day really is living in a dream world.
Its as Peterl said...exactly where does cash come from in socialist utopia..??( Which I have never put forward)

Unfortunately, it could turn out we get the worst of both worlds. ie) Your disaster us being out the EU. and the countries getting an extreme left labour PM...That certainly could spell financial disaster for us all.

 

[oldgroaner]

No I have not. I,ve maitained throughout country needs Tory financial policies with Labours commitment to social care. Its exactly the concept new labour promoted, unfortunately they developed a liking for wars and lying...bbut anybody who thinks socialist economic policies would see our country wealthy one day really is living in a dream world.
Its as Peterl said...exactly where does cash come from in socialist utopia..??( Which I have never put forward)

The cash comes from the same place it always does, the difference is that it doesn't then end up in rich people's pockets.
No conservative Government could ever have achieved what the last true socialist government of Clement Attlee did, put Britain back on it's feet after the devastation of the second world war, and give us the NHS at the same time.
Your problem is you actually believe the nonsense that a socialist Government is less economically efficient than a Tory one.
Rubbish! right wing Fairy Tales from an utterly discredited source.
Even your use of the word Utopia shows how much your judgement is coloured by propaganda.
A socialist Government properly run fulfils what Aneurin Bevan said
"Freedom is the by-product of economic surplus."
And
If freedom is to be saved and enlarged, poverty must be ended. There is no other solution.
It is no Utopia, but efficient and functional, serving all, not just some.
And this covered the campaign for Brexit
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics in the twentieth century."
Make that the 21st

 

[Zlatan]

The cash comes from the same place it always does, the difference is that it doesn't then end up in rich people's pockets.
No conservative Government could ever have achieved what the last true socialist government of Clement Attlee did, put Britain back on it's feet after the devastation of the second world war, and give us the NHS at the same time.
Your problem is you actually believe the nonsense that a socialist Government is less economically efficient than a Tory one.
Rubbish! right wing Fairy Tales from an utterly discredited source.
Even your use of the word Utopia shows how much your judgement is coloured by propaganda.
A socialist Government properly run fulfils what Aneurin Bevan said
"Freedom is the by-product of economic surplus."
And
If freedom is to be saved and enlarged, poverty must be ended. There is no other solution.
It is no Utopia, but efficient and functional, serving all, not just some.
And this covered the campaign for Brexit
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics in the twentieth century."
Make that the 21st

You really are dreaming OG...absolutely not a shred of evidence to suggest socialism ( in your almost communist view) could ever work. Infact plenty to show us it can not work.
I,ve witnessed working socialism in Steel industry, mine industry and human nature prevents it ever working...Its a pipe dream...perhaps in a thousand years...in mean time lets keep thread in reality...
You believe the BS such as Trotsky and Lenin gave us years and years ago. JC, as you,ve admitted yourself, couldn't run a whelk store. He,d give them all away, yes generously and for right reasons...but then have no whelk store to pay for anything..
Grow up OG. You are sounding like a left wing student...wanting everything...giving nothing.
Tell me one extreme left country succeeding...you cant. They do not exist anymore..ssuppose that's Murdochs fault too.
If we ever do see a far left party take power we will go bankrupt. Fact.
The world operates on capitalism...