Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

The reality of Tory rule
"In a bleak assessment of the plight of the poorest families in Britain, the study commissioned by the Local Government Association found that more than 84% of those set to lose £50 a week or more are households with children, either lone parents or couples. Almost two-thirds of them are working households, despite claims from ministers that they wish to create a welfare system that encourages work."

And they haven't learned that the Brexit Vote was motivated by a protest against this sort of thing, and are so dense, they will simply make it worse.

 

[Zlatan]

The reality of Tory rule
"In a bleak assessment of the plight of the poorest families in Britain, the study commissioned by the Local Government Association found that more than 84% of those set to lose £50 a week or more are households with children, either lone parents or couples. Almost two-thirds of them are working households, despite claims from ministers that they wish to create a welfare system that encourages work."

And they haven't learned that the Brexit Vote was motivated by a protest against this sort of thing, and are so dense, they will simply make it worse.

OG
Over course of this thread there have been lots of reasons put forward as to why we are better leaving, accepted there have been probably more for remain.Unfortunately like many things in life both sides have valid arguments. Each side simply chose to ignore the others points.
What your question should be is
" tell me reasons why we should leave that I will accept"
The answer to which is zero, there aren't any but that does not exclude them existing.

As for Brexit being a tory construct ...
A) If so why did Osborne wage fear campaign in an attempt to remain ?
B) Why is labour supporting leave ?

As for my changing sides or my mind, which seems quite important to you..
I voted leave, I still believe leave would be better. If a second ref took place however, I,d vote remain ( reasons explained earlier, predominantly social ones and difficulty extracting ourselves from the mire)
I voted labour and supported Blair. I would again vote labour, but don't support Blair( now)... or Corbyn.. Labour needs a centrist leader to get power.( but not Blair)
Where are all my " u " turns and wing overs...??? In your mind I suspect.

Yes, we know your mates will hit the dislike button for this post ...birds of a feather ???
Steb
Good points but think you,ll find its remain who retort with insults. Just read OG's reply to this. And look at how Tillson / Woosh were / are treated.

 

[Woosh]

accepted there have been probably more for remain.

I would have said the other way round.
Blame the lazy voters if you want but to me, remainers' arguments have been very well explained, albeit left a lot of voters unconvinced.
Brexiters' arguments are very straightforward, 'charity begins at home', 'take back control' just don't need explaining and still don't.

 

[Zlatan]

I would have said the other way round.
Blame the lazy voters if you want but to me, remainers' arguments have been very well explained, albeit left a lot of voters unconvinced.
Brexiters' arguments are very straightforward, 'charity begins at home', 'take back control' just don't need explaining and still don't.

Perhaps, I was trying to be fair. unbiased.

 

[oldgroaner]

The reality of Tory rule
"In a bleak assessment of the plight of the poorest families in Britain, the study commissioned by the Local Government Association found that more than 84% of those set to lose £50 a week or more are households with children, either lone parents or couples. Almost two-thirds of them are working households, despite claims from ministers that they wish to create a welfare system that encourages work."

And they haven't learned that the Brexit Vote was motivated by a protest against this sort of thing, and are so dense, they will simply make it worse.

Are you having an "off" day Zlatan? where is the "offensive language" in that post?
Should i write to the Local Government association and advise them they are in your opinion using "offensive language"?
Or are you disputing the assertion that Brexit is protest against the Government's policies?
Or that by ignoring that process the government are "Dense"
If you are then you are asserting that it is offensive not to agree with your opinions.
Dangerous.ground, don't go there.

 

[oldtom]

In the future, there will be a troll season and it will last from January 1st until December 31st.

There will be a waiting list for appointments as beaters.

Tom

 

[Zlatan]

Are you having an "off" day Zlatan? where is the "offensive language" in that post?
Should i write to the Local Government association and advise them they are in your opinion using "offensive language"?
Or are you disputing the assertion that Brexit is protest against the Government's policies?
Or that by ignoring that process the government are "Dense"
If you are then you are asserting that it is offensive not to agree with your opinions.
Dangerous.ground, don't go there.

You,ve replied to your own quote OG...might be more productive if you replied to my last post ??
The offensive language was an error..Apologies. I,ll change it to disagree... ( changed)

 

[oldgroaner]

What your question should be is
" tell me reasons why we should leave that I will accept"
The answer to which is zero, there aren't any but that does not exclude them existing.

Isn't that exactly my position all along?
I don't exclude them existing, and wait eagerly for the day when such a reason is put forward.
I have asked for some justification for Brexit from Day one.

Within the last day I have asked that very question more than once.
Why has no answer come to our attention?

All we get are diversionary and evasive responses, smug and condescending remarks to hide the fact that there is no valid argument available to give a level above zero for both the financial and social impact of Brexit.

Every day the situation looks more and more out of control. with the Government fighting each other like a sackful of cats.

And insidious background moves are revealed to have been going on to promote Brexit behind the scenes using Public money by far right organisations, some of them from outside these shores, and that is without the Fake news Murdoch Press.

 

[oldgroaner]

You,ve replied to your own quote OG...might be more productive if you replied to my last post ??
The offensive language was an error..Apologies. I,ll change it to disagree... ( changed)

I thought it might be...just had to tease.......

 

[Zlatan]

In the future, there will be a troll season and it will last from January 1st until December 31st.

There will be a waiting list for appointments as beaters.

Tom

Don't beat yourself up Tom.

 

[oldgroaner]

As for Brexit being a tory construct ...
A) If so why did Osborne wage fear campaign in an attempt to remain ?
B) Why is labour supporting leave ?

Well if it wasn't the Tory party who was it?

1. UKIP was largely composed of and from the right wing of the Tory party
2. Cameron gave the nation the referendum in the hope of not losing votes to UKIP

This is the actual level of public interest since December 2012

And this was the Daily Telegraph 20th January 2016
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12108375/The-British-public-couldnt-care-less-about-Brexit-and-the-EU-referendum.html

As I have maintained all along there Never Was a Public mass wish to leave the EU, until the Refugee situation was blown up and exploited by Farage and the others of this Nefarious right wing cabal.
The chart tells all. virtual no interest until after January 2015

This is manufactured Coup by the Right wing after inflaming Public public opinion with Lies, False truths and the Myth that they always wanted to leave the EU, the biggest lie of the lot.

The Public had no interest worth speaking of till they were misled, did they?

Tory internal politics are the motivating force behind Brexit, or rather the ventriloquist Paymaster who has his hand up their collective backsides.
It certainly didn't come from the people did it?
interest in the EU referendum was so minimal it all but disappeared from view.

there is a chart that shows the following on that Telegraph page, but I can't link to the active graphic.
UK Referendum interest, relative to Premier League, Strictly Come Dancing
It hardly gets off the base line till the right wing campaign got under way,did it?

Still think it was a genuine will of the people situation?
As to why is Labour supporting leave?
I have'nt a clue, they seem as bad as the other lot.

 

[Woosh]

As to why is Labour supporting leave?
I have't a clue, they seem as bad as the other lot.

I think Labour MPs feel obliged to represent their constituencies that voted leave.
As for why so many Labour voters chose to leave, it's the result of Osbourne's austerity program. Labour voters tend to be poorer, more affected by austerity policies, therefore more sympathetic to the £350 million a week promise.

 

[oldgroaner]

I think Labour MPs feel obliged to represent their constituencies that voted leave.
As for why so many Labour voters chose to leave, it's the result of Osbourne's austerity program. Labour voters tend to be poorer, more affected by austerity policies, therefore more sympathetic to the £350 million a week promise.

In all probability you are right on all points
This was subverted by Farage and co to target the EU, rather than the real target, the Government.

 

[PeterL]

In all probability you are right on all points

What is going on here - I recall last week we were 'arguing' about the role of the MP and how best they should be representing the electorate. OG, you very clearly were on the side that they should not take the party whip. When it suits I guess?

 

[Woosh]

the role of the MP and how best they should be representing the electorate.

MPs should be more imaginative - the EU says there is no exit bill, we signed up to a multi-year program, like taking out a lease on a property. The solution is surely finding a way to use the time left on the lease for the best.

 

[oldgroaner]

What is going on here - I recall last week we were 'arguing' about the role of the MP and how best they should be representing the electorate. OG, you very clearly were on the side that they should not take the party whip. When it suits I guess?

No ,as usual you are missing the point by a mile, this was no individual protest, but a mass rebellion, intent of establishing control by a faction not governed by the Party Manifesto pledges not merely of the party, but even the rule of Parliament itself to change the future of the nation using a misdirected popular vote in a referendum.

And most of the funding and direction came from the likes of Murdoch, who was one of the prime movers and shakers

Take off your blinkers, stop these pointless evasion and justification tactics and look at what is happening in your name.

 

[oldtom]

What is going on here - I recall last week we were 'arguing' about the role of the MP and how best they should be representing the electorate. OG, you very clearly were on the side that they should not take the party whip. When it suits I guess?

Blimey! Just for a moment there I thought we were about to be educated in the benefits of 'Brexit' over membership of the EU but once again, it is the usual ad hominem response from someone who has no answers to how the UK might be better off and chooses instead to attempt to ridicule those who question the motives of secession proponents.

Tom

 

[Zlatan]

Blimey! Just for a moment there I thought we were about to be educated in the benefits of 'Brexit' over membership of the EU but once again, it is the usual ad hominem response from someone who has no answers to how the UK might be better off and chooses instead to attempt to ridicule those who question the motives of secession proponents.

Tom

But leavers could easily say " Where are benefits from being in a united States Of Europe, we don't accept any positive arguments you,ve made about being in such a place" ( which actually I don't)

We all know full well remaining now will mean us being part of USE..
And look exactly where being in EU has got us...going down hill...

 

[oldtom]

I rarely listen to LBC but this chap does talk sense:

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

MPs should be more imaginative - the EU says there is no exit bill, we signed up to a multi-year program, like taking out a lease on a property. The solution is surely finding a way to use the time left on the lease for the best.

Agreed