Brexit, for once some facts.

[PeterL]

Where are you proposing we move on to?

Back into the past? you have nowhere else to go having supported conservative Governments that have made a balls up of ruining our industries and sold off the infrastructure
And still no answer as to proof that Brexit will work

Are you suggesting that to have continued propping up our failed industries would have been for the common good? How deluded can you be: the costs of our manufacturing, at the time, for such as cars was simply unsustainable in a global market. The technology used was old hat, the workforce were therefore unproductive, the cost of the utilities were too high and on it goes. This is the real-world example of socialist policies - a bottomless pit of never ending financial support of failure.

We actually make more cars and export more now than we ever did and that's with our own labour and a few robots to bring the productively up to standard. It's our Technicians that program the robots.

Thought the the lack of proof for our future success was more down to being unable to make wild statements of a visionary nature. No magic wand here otherwise I would have won the Lottery by now. Why won't it work, you prove that!

 

[oldgroaner]

We actually make more cars and export more now than we ever did and that's with our own labour and a few robots to bring the productively up to standard. It's our Technicians that program the robots.

First of all the failure of our own car industry was due mainly to two things
Lack of investment and lousy management.
So what is different now?
The Japanese and Germans invest heavily and impose a Japanese or German management system superior to anything we had.
Are the utilities cheaper now? if they are it is because the Japanese and Germans have insisted on proper service just in time systems
You have in fact confirmed my point all too clearly

The only way this country can be a success in business is to let foreigners with a better technology and grasp of management do the job

If that is left that our incompetent Managers, and Short termist Investors who are on a par with our politicians for greed, lethargy and a natural ability to balls up anything they touch, then Brexit is going to be the biggest disaster in Human history.

Without Foreign Brains directing that part of our industry that is successful, we would have been bankrupt years ago

We only "make" Morgan cars, the Japanese and Germans exploit our workforce to make the rest

Do you understand that at all?

And that last comment
"Why won't it work, you prove that!"

Why won't what work? you haven't actually offered any clue as to what is going to "work", where the money is coming from what strategy will be employed, and how it has been planned and will be invested in, have you?

I don't have to prove that something that doesn't exist as anything other than as a faint hope of something better won't work, only an idiot would imagine it will on such none existent evidence.

 

[PeterL]

I really don't want the process to stop anyway, it's time for the Brexiteers to prove their case the hard way and finally cobble together if not a working plan then an apology.

I note that TB put forward a 'solution' today on the AM show. Surprised you haven't bought into it. Basically, get the EU to let us impose our view of free movement (controlled). Given that was the Tory position before the Brexit vote seems dead in the water to me. The EU simply want to make an example of us and would refuse that in much the same way they are effectively refusing to negotiate - at the moment, Things will change at some point or we will simply crash out, how silly is that.

 

[PeterL]

First of all the failure of our own car industry was due mainly to two things
Lack of investment and lousy management.
So what is different now?
.

Close but you seem to forget the part that the Unions played and indeed Government.There was a lot of money wasted and only a fool would have continued to prop it up. Not a place to invest in, certainly not with tax-payers money, much better elsewhere. Previous to MT there seemed to be a lack of understanding, by both, just whose money it was. Jacob makes that very plain, you really should take the time to read what he says with an open mind. It seems to be your big failing OG.

 

[oldgroaner]

I note that TB put forward a 'solution' today on the AM show. Surprised you haven't bought into it. Basically, get the EU to let us impose our view of free movement (controlled). Given that was the Tory position before the Brexit vote seems dead in the water to me. The EU simply want to make an example of us and would refuse that in much the same way they are effectively refusing to negotiate - at the moment, Things will change at some point or we will simply crash out, how silly is that.

Make an example of us? they scarcely have the need to do that, and a hard Brexit will fit nicely into the plans of the lunatic fringe Mogg represents, so about as big a proportion of the Tory party will be pleased as will the equally extreme proportion of Brexit voters.

Soft Brexit, or hard Brexit? it doesn't make any difference, except perhaps disaster will strike a little quicker if we drop out, it really won't matter long term.
It's like watching a Punch and Judy show.

 

[Woosh]

you two (OG nd PeterL) have a lot more in common.
keep talking.

 

[PeterL]

Without Foreign Brains directing that part of our industry that is successful, we would have been bankrupt years ago

We only "make" Morgan cars, the Japanese and Germans exploit our workforce to make the rest

Do you understand that at all?

You do talk nonsense. There's nothing wrong with our managers, they had their hands tied by successive governments pandering to the union power. It is British managers and designers that are ruining our very successful modern car industry. No, they don't just assemble cars, they do design many of them as well. As for being exploited, far from it. What they have done is make the workforce realise that a factory first and foremost needs to be profitable - if it isn't it should be closed.

As for Morgan, i did live in Malvern and actually had one at one point. They are very much a cottage industry, their cars are hand built and essentially comprise standard production engines and mechanics from main-stream manufacturers. Brilliant nonetheless but hardly lmanufacturing.

 

[oldgroaner]

Do you ever read my entries? you post this AFTER my earlier comment
Close but you seem to forget the part that the Unions played and indeed Government.
#20578
Yes and this was partly due to lousy Management, union militancy and Thatcher wanting to get rid of industry and replace it with financial swindles euphemistically described as Services that parasited on the EU.
Than you write this
"Jacob makes that very plain, you really should take the time to read what he says with an open mind. It seems to be your big failing OG.

It appears to be yours rather more than mine!

 

[oldgroaner]

You do talk nonsense. There's nothing wrong with our managers, they had their hands tied by successive governments pandering to the union power. It is British managers and designers that are ruining our very successful modern car industry. No, they don't just assemble cars, they do design many of them as well. As for being exploited, far from it. What they have done is make the workforce realise that a factory first and foremost needs to be profitable - if it isn't it should be closed.

As for Morgan, i did live in Malvern and actually had one at one point. They are very much a cottage industry, their cars are hand built and essentially comprise standard production engines and mechanics from main-stream manufacturers. Brilliant nonetheless but hardly lmanufacturing.

Do give over! it is only when "British Managers" are forced to comply with a rigid foreign regime that they do a good job.
And as for Union Militancy , the job of a Manager is to manage, not play golf.
The Company I worked for had only one strike among it's thousands of workers in the 45 years I worked there, and it had an American Management system through the years of union militancy.
They were no push over either, failure to perform met with short shrift.
Conservatives do love trotting out Urban Myths and passing them off as "truth" don't they?
You mentioned this
"What they have done is make the workforce realise that a factory first and foremost needs to be profitable - if it isn't it should be closed.

The Company I worked for followed this logic to it's logical conclusion.
When the cost of Gas rose, it moved the Production to a Chinese Joint Venture Factory and closed ours down with the loss of several hundred jobs.

 

[PeterL]

Oh, and another thing. Where do you think JIT came from? Again, I was on a Systems Analysis course in Shivenham in the 70' s , it might have be late 60's and we went to Cowley to see how things worked - or didn't as it happens. There was no way that the Unions were prepared to accept JIT it was simply seen, to use your own words, as a 'plot by the Tories' to do their members out of work.

 

[PeterL]

Do give over! it is only when "British Managers" are forced to comply with a rigid foreign regime that they do a good job.
And as for Union Militancy , the job of a Manager is to manage, not play golf.
The Company I worked for had only one strike among it's thousands of workers in the 45 years I worked there, and it had an American Management system through the years of union militancy.
They were no push over either, failure to perform met with short shrift.
Conservatives do love trotting out Urban Myths and passing them off as "truth" don't they?
You mentioned this
"What they have done is make the workforce realise that a factory first and foremost needs to be profitable - if it isn't it should be closed.

The Company I worked for followed this logic to it's logical conclusion.
When the cost of Gas rose, it moved the Production to a Chinese Joint Venture Factory and closed ours down with the loss of several hundred jobs.

Not sure, but I detect a circular argument here. The company you worked for lasted 45 years before the plug was pulled due to lack of profit? I guess we can totally agree there then.

One must assume it was well managed to have lasted that long and that the local management did a good job - we can agree there as well.

So, you then go on to say, previously, that British management is useless. Come on that is plain nonsense. Some of it might be but not at the level we are talking about and certainly not now in this Post Brexit age.

UK plc is a good place we run or manage many things here and in the EU currently. We effectively make F1 work for start, much of the medical research across the word is done here in the UK and on it goes. Stop rubbishing us, we contribute handsomely to the EU and the World and will continue to do so Post-Brexit.

 

[PeterL]

And as for Union Militancy , the job of a Manager is to manage, not play golf.

Digging really deep now aren't we - where on earth did that come from? I can understand having the Sales Director be a company paid member of the local Golf Club but not he CEO or indeed anyone else on the Board. Middle management - no chance, a car if they are lucky.

 

[oldtom]

There's nothing wrong with our managers, they had their hands tied by successive governments pandering to the union power.

You are regurgitating tory dogma and propaganda that is known to be nothing but lies. The facts surrounding the demise of all the great British industries are entirely different from the lies you have read or had handed down from others who have read all they need to know in the newspapers or Sky/BBC, aka the tory media wing.

Clearly, you are quite unable to understand that you have been brainwashed all your life or if you do, you are unable or too frightened to accept that you have been gulled by people with an agenda way beyond your ken. You choose to rally behind such charlatans because of a hatred of anything remotely socialist and by definition, your fellow man. I'm sure such superior aspirations as you seem keen to project set you apart from the hoi polloi and that's how you wish to portray yourself.

It wasn't the tube drivers or the nurses, firemen, the pensioners, the disabled; it wasn't the unemployed or the poorly paid or those on zero hours contracts who brought about the financial collapse. It was capitalists; it was the bankers - bailed out by taxpayers' money! Yet, nine years on, those very people who have nothing or next to nothing, don't get bonuses and cannot choose how much tax they will pay, are still enduring punitive austerity measures put in place by an evil, fascist government intent on continuing their class war against ordinary people.

Your contributions to this thread simply reek of breathtaking arrogance!

Tom

 

[PeterL]

you two (OG nd PeterL) have a lot more in common.
keep talking.

You're right but, he keeps twisting things to make a point, whatever that might be. There's something OG is not telling us, I'm sure.

 

[PeterL]

Your contributions to this thread simply reek of breathtaking arrogance!

Tom

That's a new one for me, arrogance! Remind me to tell you what I think about you and your type, sometime.

Somewhat amused to relate that back in the 70's I commanded 7 Green Goddesses from the barracks in Windsor. Our task was to protect Heathrow Airport. Me an optimist, of course I am! Would I shout from the hilltop as our country went to dogs - never! Would I try to do something positive about it - you bet I would - how about you Tom what would you do?

 

[oldtom]

Too much inbreeding produces mutants like this creature:



Tom

 

[Woosh]

There's something OG is not telling us, I'm sure.

OG is a clever man, maybe a tad pessimistic.
He saw brexit coming.

 

[oldgroaner]

Oh, and another thing. Where do you think JIT came from? Again, I was on a Systems Analysis course in Shivenham in the 70' s , it might have be late 60's and we went to Cowley to see how things worked - or didn't as it happens. There was no way that the Unions were prepared to accept JIT it was simply seen, to use your own words, as a 'plot by the Tories' to do their members out of work.

As usual you speak nonsense, the American Company I worked for used JIT for the moment it appeared and with it Kanban materials movement inside the works, they also operated a virtually nil stock system so that there were few items on inventory.
Pull the other leg it's got bells on
Unions opposed it indeed, that never happened.

Again it was lousy management in the car industry that was the problem, where the management was capable and in control, things went without a hitch.
Blaming Unions is rather like Blaming the EU to cover up the failings of the real villains of the peace.

The Cowley management would have been sacked to a man it the organisation was owned by the American Parent company that owned the company I worked for, and replaced by more capable people.
Why was poor management tolerated?
Look how Ford took back control.
"
defining moment in changing attitudes came with the decision to shift all Sierra production from Dagenham to Belgium, leaving the Essex plant with just the Fiesta. "There was a belief that Ford was limbering up for closure," says Steve Hart, Dagenham district organiser of the Transport & General Workers Union. "Attitudes changed completely. Both sides realised that things were serious and there was a need for negotiation. The phrase `talk don't walk' became a bit of a slogan."
Proposals that had been fiercely opposed by the unions were now openly discussed.

In other Words the Management behaved as Managers and got things back under control.

Cowley should simply have closed and accepted a short term loss for long term gain, starting up again under new terms and conditions.


And why do Tories keep trotting out Urban Myths pretending they are the Truth?

 

[oldgroaner]

Somewhat amused to relate that back in the 70's I commanded 7 Green Goddesses from the barracks in Windsor. Our task was to protect Heathrow Airport. Me an optimist, of course I am! Would I shout from the hilltop as our country went to dogs - never! Would I try to do something positive about it - you bet I would - how about you Tom what would you do?

That's a new one for me, arrogance! Remind me to tell you what I think about you and your type, sometime.

Somewhat amused to relate that back in the 70's I commanded 7 Green Goddesses from the barracks in Windsor. Our task was to protect Heathrow Airport. Me an optimist, of course I am! Would I shout from the hilltop as our country went to dogs - never! Would I try to do something positive about it - you bet I would - how about you Tom what would you do?

So you obeyed orders and make out you were doing something Brave?
And why aren't you shouting from the hilltops as your country goes to the dogs? and doing something about it?
The people you voted for are making a heck of a mess of negotiating for Brexit, fighting like Cats and incapable of organising themselves never mind the nation
Because you are part of the problem, willing to gamble the future for personal rather than public gain

 

[PeterL]

Your contributions to this thread simply reek of breathtaking arrogance!

Tom

That's a new one for me, arrogance! Remind me to tell you what I think about you and your type.

Somewhat amused to relate that back in the 70's I commanded 7 Green Goddesses from the barracks in Windsor. Our task was to protect Heathrow Airport. Me an optimist, of course I am! Would I shout from the hilltop as our country went to dogs - never! Would I try to do something positive about it - you bet I would - how about you Tom what would you do?

As usual you speak nonsense, the American Company I worked for used JIT for the moment it appeared and with it Kanban materials movement inside the works, they also operated a virtually nil stock system so that there were few items on inventory.
Pull the other leg it's got bells on
Unions opposed it indeed, that never happened.

Again it was lousy management in the car industry that was the problem, where the management was capable and in control, things went without a hitch.
Blaming Unions is rather like Blaming the EU to cover up the failings of the real villains of the peace.

The Cowley management would have been sacked to a man it the organisation was owned by the American Parent company that owned the company I worked for, and replaced by more capable people.
Why was poor management tolerated?
Look how Ford took back control.
"
defining moment in changing attitudes came with the decision to shift all Sierra production from Dagenham to Belgium, leaving the Essex plant with just the Fiesta. "There was a belief that Ford was limbering up for closure," says Steve Hart, Dagenham district organiser of the Transport & General Workers Union. "Attitudes changed completely. Both sides realised that things were serious and there was a need for negotiation. The phrase `talk don't walk' became a bit of a slogan."
Proposals that had been fiercely opposed by the unions were now openly discussed.

In other Words the Management behaved as Managers and got things back under control.

Cowley should simply have closed and accepted a short term loss for long term gain, starting up again under new terms and conditions.


And why do Tories keep trotting out Urban Myths pretending they are the Truth?

I can agree with much of what you say here. From my perspective once the management were allowed to manage, without Government and Union interference, things got on an even keel. That said even then it took more than Ford to change the attitudes. They pulled out fairly quickly as I recall.