Brexit, for once some facts.

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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Your grasp of economics is coloured by the lies forced upon you and millions of others by the tory propaganda wing, aka the mainstream media.

WW1 and WW2 failed to actually bankrupt the country as proved to be the case with our involvement in a whole raft of other hostile military actions our forces have been required to fight in through the last 70 years on behalf of the British establishment.

We have been wasting and continue to waste hundreds of millions of pounds in the middle east and the country is nowhere near bankrupt, even bereft of productive large-scale industry for export, so raising the income of the poorest in society is not going to be even noticed.

Tom
OG
That's nonsense, and you know it is but you wont admit as such because Tom said it.
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
You really do kid yourself, don't you?
Possibly, but I don't (currently) think so. Greece for one doesn't have a good reputation for collecting tax and neither does Italy

This might help,unless you choose to rearrange the letters, and the numbers

A study quoted by the IMF suggests that between 1999 and 2010 the shadow economy in Greece made up 27% of the country's GDP - compared to an average of 20.2% in other rich countries.

That means that nearly one in four euros that potentially could be taxed in the country's economy simply weren't declared to the authorities, and the Greek government missed out on approximately 28bn euros ($31bn) of additional revenue each year.

But Richard Murphy, who has studied the size of the shadow economy in Europe, says Greece is not as bad as some of its neighbours.

"Greece has a problem but Bulgaria, and Romania are worst. Italy is up there alongside it. But it is an issue which has clearly contributed to the current Greek crisis," he says.

Shadow economy in 2009 (estimate)
Country
Percentage of GDP
Greece 27.5
Italy 27.0
Germany 16.0
UK 12.5
Source: Tax Research UK
There is also evidence to suggest that the Greeks aren't very good at collecting taxes even outside the shadow economy.

In 2011, an OECD survey ranked Greece as one of the worst rich countries in the world at collecting VAT receipts and social security payments.

When the OECD had tried to do similar surveys between 2005 and 2009 they found that the data was simply "missing".

As part of any deal that will see Greece remain inside the Eurozone its international creditors are demanding that the Syriza government enacts a range of tax reforms.

This includes simplifying the VAT system, closing tax loopholes and creating an independent tax collection agency free from government interference.

But Greece's creditors have made similar demands before.
 

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
8,086
4,290
Seems everyone has gone to bed, either that or I have silenced you.

Good night!
I,m just sat smiling...Nice one...

Mentioned on here before my business in France/ Spain became almost inoperable because of tax, rules,red tape basically folk putting barriers up. Have a good friend running almost same business in Greece, last year I questioned him about his tax situation...his reply..." What tax?" Pays one instalment annually, with no relation to how many charters he,s had...As long as he pays he doesn't get boats drifting off in middle of night ,which he used to, and no tax inspection...
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
The last socialist government left office in 1979 so after 38 years of nothing but right-wing and extreme right-wing government, the UK is in fine fettle, a major trading power with a buoyant and burgeoning economy and strong currency. If only!

That must be the fault of the socialists, the immigrants, sick, disabled and those in social housing?

If I believed that, I'd be a completely worthless human being, otherwise known as a tory.

Tom
 

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
8,086
4,290
The last socialist government left office in 1979 so after 38 years of nothing but right-wing and extreme right-wing government, the UK is in fine fettle, a major trading power with a buoyant and burgeoning economy and strong currency. If only!

That must be the fault of the socialists, the immigrants, sick, disabled and those in social housing?

If I believed that, I'd be a completely worthless human being, otherwise known as a tory.

Tom

Don't think anyone is laying blame for position we are in, besides according to you we don't have any economic problems..
And you are doing what extreme left always do, just pretend 1997 etal never existed...that was Labour's doing...
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,611
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Ireland
and Grumpy!
.. are we into the seven dwarfs now?
Our first Autocad System stored drawing data on 12" Floppy Discs that were so floppy you handled them with great care
.. and they stored 100kb per side.. . We had a few of the drives around my college and you could use them for demonstration to an entire class. It was easy to show the evolution down to 5.25 , and then to the smaller minidisk.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
Possibly, but I don't (currently) think so. Greece for one doesn't have a good reputation for collecting tax and neither does Italy

This might help,unless you choose to rearrange the letters, and the numbers

A study quoted by the IMF suggests that between 1999 and 2010 the shadow economy in Greece made up 27% of the country's GDP - compared to an average of 20.2% in other rich countries.

That means that nearly one in four euros that potentially could be taxed in the country's economy simply weren't declared to the authorities, and the Greek government missed out on approximately 28bn euros ($31bn) of additional revenue each year.

But Richard Murphy, who has studied the size of the shadow economy in Europe, says Greece is not as bad as some of its neighbours.

"Greece has a problem but Bulgaria, and Romania are worst. Italy is up there alongside it. But it is an issue which has clearly contributed to the current Greek crisis," he says.

Shadow economy in 2009 (estimate)
Country
Percentage of GDP
Greece 27.5
Italy 27.0
Germany 16.0
UK 12.5
Source: Tax Research UK
There is also evidence to suggest that the Greeks aren't very good at collecting taxes even outside the shadow economy.

In 2011, an OECD survey ranked Greece as one of the worst rich countries in the world at collecting VAT receipts and social security payments.

When the OECD had tried to do similar surveys between 2005 and 2009 they found that the data was simply "missing".

As part of any deal that will see Greece remain inside the Eurozone its international creditors are demanding that the Syriza government enacts a range of tax reforms.

This includes simplifying the VAT system, closing tax loopholes and creating an independent tax collection agency free from government interference.

But Greece's creditors have made similar demands before.
How convenient to forget the billions from both north sea oil and gas diverted from the nation's coffers into private hands, tell me if just this one swindle equivalent to Norway's sovereign wealth fund was included where would we be in league table then, and where did the money go from selling off transport assets?And electrical distribution etc.,

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,323
16,849
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
The BBC reports that the EU would agree a special deal for NI.
Should Scotland have one too?
That would be good for UK businesses.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
From the Independent this morning
"
Theresa May and David Davis 'selectively' quoted report to justify sweeping cabinet Brexit powers
The Lords say they actually raised 'fundamental concerns' over Ms May's legislation

Oh what a surprise, there are lies
Damned lies
and selective quotes.
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
How convenient to forget the billions from both north sea oil and gas diverted from the nation's coffers into private hands, tell me if just this one swindle equivalent to Norway's sovereign wealth fund was included where would we be in league table then, and where did the money go from selling off transport assets?And electrical distribution etc.,

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
Certainly recognise that at least one of the Stage Coach pair lives in a very tidy pile (Castle) just outside Perth. As for the rest I don't know but doubt it is as you say. Sounds more like mischief and envy to me. I have little doubt that much of it, revenue, will have been wasted in one form or another. Last time I looked Norway was a minnow when it comes to population and. Commerce, from which I deduce their expenditure is lower than ours - equals large surpluses, not unlike some of those Gulf states,
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,323
16,849
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
This is good read or at least I believe so
I disagree fundamentally with the author.
More spending, more tax, more regulations as long as by consensus will actually lead to a better society.
Better protection for consumers, for the environment, for social protection, for health and for business too, by ensuring that the cowboys don't spoil it for everyone else.
 
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PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
I disagree fundamentally with the author.
More spending, more tax, more regulations as long as by consensus will actually lead to a better society.
Better protection for consumers, for the environment, for social protection, for health.
Oh dear, you've missed one vital element. You either need the money before you can spend it or good credit and demonstrate the will to pay what you borrow back plus interest. You go try and get credit to buy a castle near Perth.

Of course spending more on the things you like makes for a happy bunny, ever was thus - real life sucks.
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,323
16,849
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Oh dear, you've missed one vital element. You either need the money before you can spend it or good credit and demonstrate the will to pay what you borrow back plus interest.
that is a simplified view of macro-economics.
If what you said were true, banks can't lend more than what they have as capital. Yet, every bank follows fractional reserve banking. They lend out 20-30 times as much.
The reality is the 'investment multiplier' in our economy is about 4 to 5. Google it up if you like. The government takes about 35% of GDP in taxes, invest more (e.g. in rail/road transport) will generate more tax that the amount invested if the conditions are good.
We need spending, growth is fuelled by spending. As long as you keep the annual budget deficit within 2%-3% and national debt to around 75%, the economy will yield better growth over medium to long term.
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
that is a simplified view of macro-economics.
If what you said were true, banks can't lend more than what they have as capital. Yet, every bank follows fractional reserve banking. They lend out 20-30 times as much.
The reality is the 'investment multiplier' in our economy is about 4 to 5. Google it up if you like. The government takes about 35% of GDP in taxes, invest more (e.g. in rail/road transport) will generate more tax that the amount invested if the conditions are good.
We need spending, growth is fuelled by spending. As long as you keep the annual budget deficit within 2%-3% and national debt to around 75%, the economy will yield better growth over medium to long term.
This is even easier

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,323
16,849
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
This is even easier
you should read more on macro-economics. My first serious girlfriend did economics at uni, she needed a bit of help with maths, that's how I got interested in it and read some of her coursework over a couple of years.
 

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
8,086
4,290
That's the reason Corbyn avoids power, he knows only too well his vision of politics would only aggregate situation.Its actually nothing to do with Brexit..
Voting public at large realise similar ( probably not on here) but its why inly chance labour have of power is with a more centrist approach. Corbyn would lead us all into poverty and he knows it.
 

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