Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Last time I looked there was a great deal of training going on. Quango's all over the place supposedly offering solutions along with the few Technical Colleges that are left (having been plundered by the 'new' Universities). It used to be that the employers provided training but the rush to reduce their profits and increase taxation has had the envitable result - they can't afford to. Control has therefore gone to the centre and been distanced completely from the point of need. Now that lays bare your own OG circular argument. Bit daft to overtrain, if that is actually the case, not in my experience it isn't. But, for some daft reason they think they are too clever by half and have unrealistic expectations - what good is that? How come they don't go somewhere to get work and leave the space for those cherry-pickers?
Where do you suggest? the EU for instance? how odd, we are leaving there are we not?
And the reason companies are struggling isn't through Taxation as they avoid that pretty neatly, try looking at inflated Executive pay and over inflated dividends to investors.
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
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Dundee
Hopefully not the future! I work as a species identifier of a wide variety of small arthropods and some other lifeforms in the Natural History Museum forum and have seen how so many come a cropper trying to use Google photos and web pages to identify species.

Too often Google and accuracy live in two different worlds.
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The problem here is that the small arthropods and some other lifeforms need to be educated so that they can speak for themselves. Far too many 'experts' in this world.

I assume that said experts like to keep things to themselves - probably a smart move in their case.

Species identifier - come in handy on here. I bet?
 
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PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
Where do you suggest? the EU for instance? how odd, we are leaving there are we not?
And the reason companies are struggling isn't through Taxation as they avoid that pretty neatly, try looking at inflated Executive pay and over inflated dividends to investors.
That might be true of some, but, by far, the majority of companies, small and medium, do not make the profits needed. That no doubt through a mixture of inefficiencies and taxation of which so called Business Rates is perhaps the greatest barrier.Business is seen as a cash-cow.
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
Where do you suggest? the EU for instance? how odd, we are leaving there are we not?
And the reason companies are struggling isn't through Taxation as they avoid that pretty neatly, try looking at inflated Executive pay and over inflated dividends to investors.
The bright ones can go just about anywhere they choose - it's the ones that complain I was talking about.
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
True, but also often the fault of the poorer countries. We are poorer than Germany and we lose many highly skilled people to Germany, while receiving EU grant money for our poorer regions like West Wales, the North-East etc.

We lose those people because we've failed to provide them the opportunities that Germany offers.
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Why doesn't Germany use some of its money stash to train the people in other countries. Indeed why doesn't the EU solely focus on doing exactly that? Labour is probably as cheap in Bulgaria as it is in China?

Giving Aid is never a solution - you need to empower the people with education, good health, training and meaningful work. That's as Left as you will ever find me!
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
The problem here is that the small arthropods and some other lifeforms need to be educated so that they can speak for themselves. Far too many 'experts' in this world.

I assume that said experts like to keep things to themselves - probably a smart move in their case.

Species identifier - come in handy on here. I bet?
Not really, some are easy to spot! :cool:
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
Why doesn't Germany use some of its money stash to train the people in other countries. Indeed why doesn't the EU solely focus on doing exactly that? Labour is probably as cheap in Bulgaria as it is in China?

Giving Aid is never a solution - you need to empower the people with education, good health, training and meaningful work. That's as Left as you will ever find me!
Then you are clearly voting for a party you don't believe in.
It is miles ahead in the "no intention of doing that" race.
Mind you there is the point that finding one is like looking for Hen's teeth.
The whole sorry Westminster Circus are unfit for purpose, whatever party they represent.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
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The bright ones can go just about anywhere they choose - it's the ones that complain I was talking about.
Just how are we going to motivate them with no mechanism to do so, no funds for the purpose, and avoid creating mayhem in the process?

The current approach is to vilify the people you want to abuse.
It's not a case of Give us the tools and we'll finish the jobs
as Give us back the immigrant's jobs and we'll finish the workers (When we've reduced them to servile obedience)

This generation have expectations far in excess of reality, that is why they voted for Brexit, not to be manual labourers. They saw themselves getting the good, not the menial jobs, and they really don't want them just to be seasonal.
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
Just how are we going to motivate them with no mechanism to do so, no funds for the purpose, and avoid creating mayhem in the process?

The current approach is to vilify the people you want to abuse.
It's not a case of Give us the tools and we'll finish the jobs
as Give us back the immigrant's jobs and we'll finish the workers (When we've reduced them to servile obedience)

This generation have expectations far in excess of reality, that is why they voted for Brexit, not to be manual labourers. They saw themselves getting the good, not the menial jobs, and they really don't want them just to be seasonal.
I guess that we are talking about two different groups? Not all, far from it, jobs that are being taken by EU nationals are menial, perhaps they just don't pay enough to match the expectations of our highly educated workers? In our day (?) it was a case of supply and demand without any Government input at all, I think Labour were in at the time. Didn't get much, 11p an hour I think it was and I had to fork out £1 a week for my tools and cycle 20miles each way. The Foreman would have been totally acceptable by today's standards but he made a pass at me - no wonder I joined the Army! I digress, but I'm sure it influenced me, but I got over it OK in fact it amuses me no end. Didn't need to be counselled or even find someone to blame.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
The problem here is that the small arthropods and some other lifeforms need to be educated so that they can speak for themselves. Far too many 'experts' in this world.
I don't use expert or the higher level term that the NHM rate me at. I'm just a helper answering questions, taking pleasure from helping others.

I assume that said experts like to keep things to themselves - probably a smart move in their case.
Nothing could be further from the truth. We freely spread the knowledge and get pleasure from sometimes seeing others reach an ability to help others. Your view on this issue is commonplace but has always puzzled me, since experts usually want to share and spread their knowledge.

Species identifier - come in handy on here. I bet?
I've had the odd thoughts about other members, but never considered any as akin to arthropods, small or otherwise.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
Why doesn't Germany use some of its money stash to train the people in other countries.
It does, heard of Skoda and Seat? Both are VW companies set up in the Czech Republic and Spain with the training from Germany. VW have also set up plants in Poland and Hungary, training their people. And it's not just the motor industry, some domestic electricals and other industries have moved into poorer EU countries. Germany gains the lower cost production, though that's more marginal now, while those poorer countries gain employment and skills.

Giving Aid is never a solution - you need to empower the people with education, good health, training and meaningful work.
Agreed, and we should apply that worldwide.
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PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
Nothing could be further from the truth. We freely spread the knowledge and get pleasure from sometimes seeing others reach an ability to help others. Your view on this issue is commonplace but has always puzzled me, since experts usually want to share and spread their knowledge.
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I'd based my reply on what (I thought) you said

"I work as a species identifier of a wide variety of small arthropods and some other lifeforms in the Natural History Museum forum and have seen how so many come a cropper trying to use Google photos and web pages to identify species.

Google does have plenty of rubbish on just about any subject you care to name but would have hoped that your Forum and perhaps Wikipedia would have been populated by someone from the NHM to spread the gospel?
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
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That might be true of some, but, by far, the majority of companies, small and medium, do not make the profits needed. That no doubt through a mixture of inefficiencies and taxation of which so called Business Rates is perhaps the greatest barrier.Business is seen as a cash-cow.
Sorry but that's another Urban myth, and who better to explode it than that fount of Truth and Wisdom, the Daily Express
"EU tax rates ranked in order of highest to lowest

1. Malta, 35 per cent
2. Belgium, 33.99 per cent
3. France, 33.3 per cent
4. Italy, 31.4 per cent
5. Germany, 29.72 per cent
6. Luxembourg, 29.22 per cent
7. Greece, 29 per cent
8 / 9 /10. Austria / Netherlands / Spain, 25 per cent
11/12 /13. Denmark / Slovakia / Sweden, 22 per cent
14. Portugal, 21 per cent
15 / 16 / 17 / 18. Britain / Croatia / Estonia / Finland, 20 per cent
19 / 20 / 21. Czech Republic / Hungary / Poland, 19 per cent
22. Slovenia, 17 per cent
23. Romania, 16 per cent
24 / 25. Latvia / Lithuania, 15 per cent
26 / 27. Cyprus / Ireland 12.5 per cent
28. Bulgaria, 10 per cent

Down in 15th Place!
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
It does, heard of Skoda and Seat? Both are VW companies set up in the Czech Republic and Spain with the training from Germany. VW have also set up plants in Poland and Hungary, training their people. And it's not just the motor industry, some domestic electricals and other industries have moved into poorer EU countries. Germany gains the lower cost production, though that's more marginal now, while those poorer countries gain employment and skills.



Agreed, and we should apply that worldwide.
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True enough and even the USA and the UK. But, whilst it's true that the training is given 'freely' the profit however, goes back to Germany? So, unless that training allows whoever to create their own car factory able to complete, on a level playing field, with Germany - nothing much changes. I fully realise that I could be accused of a circular argument here (OG) and I accept that. The only light I see is the example of firms such as TESLA - they will benefit from such training.
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
Sorry but that's another Urban myth, and who better to explode it than that fount of Truth and Wisdom, the Daily Express
"EU tax rates ranked in order of highest to lowest

1. Malta, 35 per cent
2. Belgium, 33.99 per cent
3. France, 33.3 per cent
4. Italy, 31.4 per cent
5. Germany, 29.72 per cent
6. Luxembourg, 29.22 per cent
7. Greece, 29 per cent
8 / 9 /10. Austria / Netherlands / Spain, 25 per cent
11/12 /13. Denmark / Slovakia / Sweden, 22 per cent
14. Portugal, 21 per cent
15 / 16 / 17 / 18. Britain / Croatia / Estonia / Finland, 20 per cent
19 / 20 / 21. Czech Republic / Hungary / Poland, 19 per cent
22. Slovenia, 17 per cent
23. Romania, 16 per cent
24 / 25. Latvia / Lithuania, 15 per cent
26 / 27. Cyprus / Ireland 12.5 per cent
28. Bulgaria, 10 per cent

Down in 15th Place!
That looks a bit like VAT rates to me. What about all the other taxes?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
Google does have plenty of rubbish on just about any subject you care to name but would have hoped that your Forum and perhaps Wikipedia would have been populated by someone from the NHM to spread the gospel?
That's not the problem, the NHM forum has NHM experts as well as volunteers. Google can lead to numerous excellent expert articles on the most obscure of creatures. The problem is reaching that information, Google's algorithm commonly failing to perform. Being US centric doesn't help, throwing up vast amounts of information only relevant to the USA, even when using the correct national link.

And Google search for relevant natural history photos is hopeless, even when using the correct scientific name. The majority gathered are spurious possibilities.
.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
True enough and even the USA and the UK. But, whilst it's true that the training is given 'freely' the profit however, goes back to Germany? So, unless that training allows whoever to create their own car factory able to complete, on a level playing field, with Germany - nothing much changes. I fully realise that I could be accused of a circular argument here (OG) and I accept that. The only light I see is the example of firms such as TESLA - they will benefit from such training.
Better send Nissan, BMW and Honda packing then?;)
 

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