Approved ebike list?

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
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Salisbury
So in a worst case scenario someone could end up spending up to 2 years in jail and getting a criminal record (using a motorised vehicle while serving a driving ban ) . Which is why this question is important ?


yes I accept not likely but certainly possible
Yes, very much so.

One can argue that the chances of getting caught whilst riding or driving an uninsured, unregistered, motor vehicle, that's displaying no current VED disc and being ridden by a possibly unlicensed rider who may not be wearing an approved crash helmet is low. I would tend to agree, it probably is very low if the motor vehicle in question looks and performs very much like an approved ebike.

The issue here is that, should such a vehicle be involved in an accident, and should someone incur damage, injury, or even death, as a result of that accident, then there is no material difference in law between an unapproved ebike and any other illegal motor vehicle. Quite reasonably, the victims of any such accident would expect that the law should be brought to bear heavily on the offender.
 

GaRRy

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 18, 2012
1,019
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Tamworth
One can argue that the chances of getting caught whilst riding or driving an uninsured, unregistered, motor vehicle, that's displaying no current VED disc and being ridden by a possibly unlicensed rider who may not be wearing an approved crash helmet is low. I would tend to agree, it probably is very low if the motor vehicle in question looks and performs very much like an approved ebike.
Yep but we all know about Murphys Law :D.

While obviously the poor victim would be found guilty (There is absolutly no defense for driving while banned even if you are not aware that you are banned). The Court case afterwards when he goes after the supplier of his "Legal" bike for damages will make for good reading :eek:
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
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The issue here is that, should such a vehicle be involved in an accident, and should someone incur damage, injury, or even death, as a result of that accident, then there is no material difference in law between an unapproved ebike and any other illegal motor vehicle. Quite reasonably, the victims of any such accident would expect that the law should be brought to bear heavily on the offender.
I think this is exactly the point we need to be aware of. Whilst riding around for commuting, leisure or exercise purposes, the chances of being caught on an ilegal electric bike (one that resembles a bicycle) are extremely low, probably bordering on similar odds to a lottery win as someone has already mentioned. The real problems could manifest themselves post accident, where the emergency services are called and where serious injury or significant damage occurs. A collision investigation team will be dispatched to deal with the incident. These people are trained detectives and a motor fitted to a bike will attract their attention and they will investigate using forensic experts to test and report on anything that they are unsure about. A serious accident scene is treated in the same way as a murder scene in terms of preserving and collecting evidence of wrong doing.

This scenario, I would say, is where the greatest risk of being caught lies. It's still small, but it is more likely than winning the lottery. In contrast to the lottery, instead of winning a fortune, you could lose one. If an ilegal ebike caused a significant & life changing injury to another person, it could cost the rider everything. No insurer would cover them.
 
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shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
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.............., but if the revision doesn't permit throttles in future, any 250 watt throttle controlled bike will be illegal. That will include all existing ones. Freedom from retrospective force for the revised regulations will only apply to bikes that are strictly legal now, and throttle controlled 250 watt e-bikes are not.
So even my fallback Wisper 705e bike will be illegal if this country accepts the unammended EU rules - sorry David.
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
One thing that concerns me is that although the probability of getting caught is very low (assuming one rides sensibly and the bike doesn't look like a renegade from a race track), I think that it is increasing. A couple of years ago I could ride my regular route along a shared use cycle path/footpath and not encounter many others using it. Now it's becoming more and more popular, as the council increased the city centre parking charges and many now leave their cars in the free supermarket car park and walk or cycle into town (I do the same).

One problem with this increased usage is that pedestrians, particularly small children, are now far more likely to stray on to the cycle path side (there is a raised white line separating the footpath from the cycle path). Often they don't look first and there have been a few instances where I've seen near-misses between bikes and children. A few weeks ago I very nearly hit a pushchair, when the lady pushing it (who had her back to me) suddenly pushed it right across in front of me. On that occasion I almost went over the handlebars, but managed to stop (I was only riding slowly, but she did this maybe ten feet in front of me).

It would be dreadfully easy to hit a small child like this, even riding slowly, with a possibility of causing injury or worse. It's the sort of accident that is quite hard to avoid, too, unless you choose to not ride along that path altogether. I'm seriously thinking of risking the long way around on the road, rather than to use this path in future, but that's partly because I'm acutely aware that my ebike isn't approved. I wonder if someone who's riding along this path on a similar illegal ebike, but ignorant of the fact, would think the same way?
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
So even my fallback Wisper 705e bike will be illegal if this country accepts the unammended EU rules - sorry David.
I thought the Wisper was Type Approved to EN15194? If so, then it's OK now and in future, as long as it hasn't been modified to make it materially different from the model that was Type Approved.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
It looks to me like we're back to where we started weeks/months ago.
The court didn't decide that the bike was illrgal because it hadn't been pre-approved. They simpy tested it against the regulations:
Did it have a motor lower than 200w (now 250w)? Yes
Did it have a speed cut-off at 15mph or less? Yes
Did it have pedals? No, therefore illegal.

One would assume that they would do a similar test in similar circumstances, so, as long as you have a 250w label on the motor, the power cuts at 15mph and it looks like a bicycle, you shouldn't have a problem.
Don't forget that they have no way to test the actual power of the motor and even if they did, the standards are not clear on what it should be.
 
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shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
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It looks to me like we're back to where we started weeks/months ago.
The court didn't decide that the bike was illrgal because it hadn't been pre-approved. They simpy tested it against the regulations:
Did it have a motor lower than 200w (now 250w)? Yes
Did it have a speed cut-off at 15mph or less? Yes
Did it have pedals? No, therefore illegal.

One would assume that they would do a similar test in similar circumstances, so, as long as you have a 250w label on the motor, the power cuts at 15mph and it looks like a bicycle, you shouldn't have a problem.
Don't forget that they have no way to test the actual power of the motor and even if they did, the standards are not clear on what it should be.
It did have pedals but the court was advised of another law regarding safety of others while being pedalled and decided it wasn't.
 
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D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
I am well aware that some reputable Taiwanese and Chinese made bikes do carry approval, but, based on my experience of having repaired a few locally I know beyond any doubt that the vast majority being imported don't.

I've seen one approved ebike for repair in the past couple of years, and many more that weren't. You mentioned the Suzhou Bafang motor, and that is a good example. I've seen several generic ebikes fitted with this motor, none had controllers set to lower than 12A (several were set to 15A), all had 36V nominal batteries, all were clearly illegal, even allowing a low figure for motor efficiency of 70%.
There's no current limit. The Heinzmann kits have been type approved at 36v and 28 amps. The BH Emotion Neo also runs with current above 15ampps and has been approved to EN 15194. There's no regulation for peak power and no limit to the time it can run continuously at high power.
 

shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
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I thought the Wisper was Type Approved to EN15194? If so, then it's OK now and in future, as long as it hasn't been modified to make it materially different from the model that was Type Approved.
It has both PAS and a throttle which is active as soon as a power level on the display is selected and the motor is 250W.
 
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D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
It did have pedals but the court was advised of another law regarding safety of others while being pedalled and decided it wasn't.
That was the whole point of contention. She said it had pedals. The court decided it didn't.
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
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Salisbury
There's no current limit. The Heinzmann kits have been type approved at 36v and 28 amps. The BH Emotion Neo also runs with current above 15ampps and has been approved to EN 15194. There's no regulation for peak power and no limit to the time it can run continuously at high power.
You've missed the point. There is a clearly stated power limit. In the case of the UK regulations (which are the only ones could apply to these ebikes with throttles) then the motor output power, when measured using the method in BS1727: 1971, must not exceed 200W.

Even if one took the view that the Suzhou Bafang motor was only 70% efficient then the lowest powered of these would be running at 430W input and around 300W output.

The EU approved bikes (you cannot have an EU approved kit, BTW) can exceed 250W output, as the common method of demonstrating compliance is the acceleration test in EN15194. It is possible (and many manufacturers do it) to allow for a much higher current (and hence motor input power) than would seemingly be allowed if the acceleration profile of the controller/motor/bike combination is adjusted to ensure that the rate of acceleration over the test distance is within that defined in the standard.

Finally, if you read BS1727:1971 then you will see that there is indeed a time factor in the motor power output test.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,361
30,710
I think the most important underlying issue is that of the very large number of 250 watt e-bikes with independent throttle control.

If the new regulations when they come into force do not permit independent throttles, all of those bikes will be permanently illegal. They will have to be converted to overriding pedelec control to become legal.

The only existing e-bikes for which there will be exemption in that circumstance are those which accord either to the existing 200 watt EAPC regulations or the 250 watt no-throttle EU type regulation.

I hope the DfT will permit independent throttles to prevent this substantial problem arising.
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
It has both PAS and a throttle which is active as soon as a power level on the display is selected and the motor is 250W.
In that case it doesn't have Type Approval, as there is no means of approving a throttle for a 250W ebike approved to EN15194 at the moment (and I accept that there may be if there is some future amendment).
 

jazper53

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 20, 2012
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Brighton
It seems to me this thread is going around in circles. What concerns me, and I expect others is when EN 15194 comes into law, and the blind eye policy is not so blind. The choice of e-bikes will become limited to those who are of reasonable fitness, and will excude those of a age where the extra assistance that the throttle gives, will be outlawed, and could deter up to 50% of the market away from future purchases
I enclose the age Poll which clearly shows that the 50+ age group constitutes nearly 60% of the users on this site.

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/polls-surveys/5423-anonymous-poll-what-your-age.html
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,361
30,710
I understand the Wisper models do have EN15194 approval, David Miall has confirmed the tests and the lab used, but the throttles on the tested bikes are probably subject to the pedals rotating for them to be in use.
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
I think the most important underlying issue is that of the very large number of 250 watt e-bikes with independent throttle control.

If the new regulations when they come into force do not permit independent throttles, all of those bikes will be permanently illegal. They will have to be converted to overriding pedelec control to become legal.

The only existing e-bikes for which there will be exemption in that circumstance are those which accord either to the existing 200 watt EAPC regulations or the 250 watt no-throttle EU type regulation.

I hope the DfT will permit independent throttles to prevent this substantial problem arising.
As far as I can see, they are illegal now. As soon as a Type Approved item is modified so as to make it no longer conform to the regulation against which it was approved then it ceases to be Type Approved. This is very clear and has been for years. Some who have fitted non-Type Approved items to cars (like lights and exhaust systems for example) have found this out in the courts. T

If anyone fits a throttle to a non-UK approved (i.e. 200W) ebike then it becomes a motor vehicle and any prior Type Approval as an ebike is rendered invalid.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
You've missed the point. There is a clearly stated power limit. In the case of the UK regulations (which are the only ones could apply to these ebikes with throttles) then the motor output power, when measured using the method in BS1727: 1971, must not exceed 200W.

Even if one took the view that the Suzhou Bafang motor was only 70% efficient then the lowest powered of these would be running at 430W input and around 300W output.

The EU approved bikes (you cannot have an EU approved kit, BTW) can exceed 250W output, as the common method of demonstrating compliance is the acceleration test in EN15194. It is possible (and many manufacturers do it) to allow for a much higher current (and hence motor input power) than would seemingly be allowed if the acceleration profile of the controller/motor/bike combination is adjusted to ensure that the rate of acceleration over the test distance is within that defined in the standard.

Finally, if you read BS1727:1971 then you will see that there is indeed a time factor in the motor power output test.
How can a Heinzmann and the Neos be approved then?
Also, it wouldn't surprise me if the Bosch motors run more than 15 amps. I've run a 250w Bafang as a crank drive at 15 amps, and The Bosch is more powerful - more than an efficiency difference.
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
I understand the Wisper models do have EN15194 approval, David Miall has confirmed the tests and the lab used, but the throttles on the tested bikes are probably subject to the pedals rotating for them to be in use.
As far as I can see from reading the EN, as long as the pedals are rotating there seems to be no specific prohibition on having a secondary means of control, so you're right. However, if the throttle can be used WITHOUT the pedals rotating, then it would no longer conform with the EU regulations and would therefore be illegal to use here. This is an important point and one that should be made clear, I think.