Approved ebike list?

[Jeremy]

I think that everything in this thread is totally wrong. Many people that read this forum have bought bikes from reputable sources in good faith, and your scaring them into not using them because they'll now be thinking that they're illegal when they're not - just like that poor guy with the scooter. It started with a premise that has never been tested in law, and until it is there's little to worry about. Even if your bike doesn't comply with EN15194, you've got more chance of winning the lottery jackpot than being prosecuted for having an illegal bike. We should be encouraging people onto ebikes, not scaring them off them.

In the meantime, I'll carry on riding and enjoying mine.

You seem to be making two points, one I wholeheartedly agree with and one I don't.

Firstly, uninformed customers have a moral right to know whether the product they are buying is legal to use. I think it is morally reprehensible for a vendor to sell a product that doesn't meet the required EU or UK regulatory requirements WITHOUT making that clear to the customer.

Secondly, I share your view that the probability of getting caught, or having been caught then being charged, is miniscule, provided that the ebike you are riding complies with the spirit of the regulations.

However, the two are completely separate issues. An informed customer can choose to buy and ride an ebike that hasn't been shown to meet the regulations, so they are taking that very small risk of getting caught willingly. An uninformed customer will be taking that very small risk unwittingly, and it could end up shattering their life if something untoward happened.

 

[Jeremy]

Jeremy,actually it is not the 'generic Chinese bikes' that usually have problems with illegality or not meeting a standard. It is ironic that the powerful SFS and TUF standards organisations have many offices in China and it's straightforward to get EN15194 standard on the Chinese bikes,most have standard components such as the Bafang motor and controller which are well known to the standard organisations.
The problems with illegality tend to be the small volume suppliers producing high powered bikes to satisfy a small market who finds such machines attractive or those bringing S class bikes into the UK and not properly SVA them-for that think mini moped,no cycle track usage.
In fact although TUV have offices in the UK I would think it would be both difficult and expensive to get a UK manufactured bike through EN15194-shame really.
Dave
Kudoscycles

I am well aware that some reputable Taiwanese and Chinese made bikes do carry approval, but, based on my experience of having repaired a few locally I know beyond any doubt that the vast majority being imported don't.

I've seen one approved ebike for repair in the past couple of years, and many more that weren't. You mentioned the Suzhou Bafang motor, and that is a good example. I've seen several generic ebikes fitted with this motor, none had controllers set to lower than 12A (several were set to 15A), all had 36V nominal batteries, all were clearly illegal, even allowing a low figure for motor efficiency of 70%. None had any indication that they'd been tested to EN15194, none carried any form of ID plate on the frame.

A search through sites like ebay will show dozens of cheap ebikes on offer in the UK, few make any mention of approval. I strongly suspect the majority that are being brought in by the container load and sold on sites like this have never been subjected to any approval process, and may not even meet other UK bike safety regs.

 

[Jeremy]

I'm quite sure there aren't any official exemptions Jeremy since the DfT would have revealed these in connection with a recent issue if they existed. We have a "blind eye" situation vis-a-vis the 250 watts issue until the revised regulations come into force.

Whether that will extend to a throttle and 250 watt combination after the regulation change is a moot point. At present I think that is something that will be ignored for expedience, but if the revision doesn't permit throttles in future, any 250 watt throttle controlled bike will be illegal. That will include all existing ones. Freedom from retrospective force for the revised regulations will only apply to bikes that are strictly legal now, and throttle controlled 250 watt e-bikes are not.

Thanks flecc, that's the tentative conclusion I'd reached.

The "blind eye" thing is OK as far as the police undertaking a routine check is concerned, but this is Statute Law, and as has already been made clear, the courts (and the CPS) would not be able to adopt the "blind eye" strategy should someone be prosecuted.

We have people selling ebikes making false statements to their customers about legality, without, it seems, having taken heed of what that might mean for an unfortunate customer. It would be nice if ignorance was a valid defence to a breach of the law, but we all know that it isn't.

For example, the law makes this statement about an ordinary bicycle converted to an electric one:

"(a) a reference to the manufacturer of the vehicle, in the case of a vehicle that has been altered so as to become an electrically assisted pedal cycle, is the person who made that alteration;"

This makes the purchaser and installer of a conversion kit, for example, responsible for ensuring that the finished bike is approved to EN15194 (in the case of a 250W pedelec kit) or approved to UK SI 1168 and UK SI 1176 in the case of a 200W kit with throttle.

How many kit suppliers make this law clear to customers?

 

[Jeremy]

The law is in such a mess at the moment and so many grey areas that are open to interpretation,until our government finally signs up to EN15194.However I think we can all agree that now and in the future anything above 250 watts is illegal-I am aware that strictly the law says 200 watts but if you adhere to that 90 per cent of ebikes would be illegal.
In my opinion-If your bike is 250 watts and below you are unlikely to have any problems with the police,certainly none of my customers has had any problems.
If you buy a bike with EN15194 that is a reasonable guarantee that your bike will be legal post legislation for I just cannot see our government inventing its own standard when the EU standard has proven very workable for the rest of Europe.
Dave
Kudoscycles

It might be nice and comforting, as a vendor, to believe that Statute Law has "grey areas", but we all know it doesn't.

The law is clear and unambiguous at the moment; to be legal you either have to ride an ebike approved to UK SI 1168 and UK SI 1176, with the appropriate data plate on the frame to show this, OR you have to ride an ebike that has been approved to EN15194 and has the appropriate Type Approval certificate to show this. All other ebikes are illegal.

In simple terms, as stated earlier in this thread, that means that:

- 200W rated motor power (to BS 1727:1971) and a throttle is legal
- 250 W motor power, pedelec and no throttle is legal

Bikes approved to EN15194 are legal under our obligations under EU agreements, but just haven't made it into UK Statute yet.

I've never seen a 200W ebike, although I'm sure there may be some very old ones around. The lowest rated power one I've seen for repair was a Kalkhoff (which was clearly EN15194 approved). The dozen or more bafang motor equipped generic bikes I've seen had motor input powers ranging from around 430 to 540W (so at least 300W to 380W motor output power, probably more) and no sign of any approval. None of these had sufficiently accurate speed limiting either, on a fully charged battery most significantly exceeded the limit.

 

[Jeremy]

Winter v DPP [2002] EWHC 1524 (Admin) (10 July 2002)

That case is very similar to that of the chap in Southampton that I tried to help. In his case the "ebike" looked like a small scooter, with wide pedals coming out either side of the running boards. It was low powered, with heavy lead acid batteries. He was stopped by the police for not displaying a rear number plate initially. They decided not to charge him but to demand that he stop using on the road it until it was registered.

Should an illegal ebike come to the attention of the courts, perhaps through being involved in an accident, then I am certain that they would take a similar approach to that outlined in the case you've linked to. TBH, knowing the status of the law in question I don't think they would have any choice.

 

[Jeremy]

Not sure why you posted that. It has nothing to do with electric bikes. It was a stand-on scooter without pedals. There was also a guy prosecuted for using a Segway, but that isn't a bike either.

It clearly illustrates that something that claimed to be an ebike was scrutinised using the applicable UK statutes and found to be a motor vehicle. The legal process and outcome is the same as for an illegal ebike that looks a bit different but similarly doesn't meet the requirements in the listed statutes.

 

[Jeremy]

And that would bring with it all the kangaroo court Medieval nonsense that any matter decided before Mags brings.... so woes betide you if you are caught in a part of the country where someone sitting on the bench has a bee in their bonnet about things - or congratulations for dancing out of the courtroom with a slap on the wrists if you live in a part of the country where they are relatively sympathetic. Absolute joke the whole sorry system.

Sorry, I didn't make the point clear. In the Mags court the legal authority is the clerk. His or her task is to direct the bench on points of law. The legal direction in this case would be that this is statute law, therefore not open to judgement, so the bench would, in effect, be directed to find the defendant guilty if there was strong evidence of non-compliance (which might be just not having a data plate or Type Approval).

 

[103Alex1]

Sorry, I didn't make the point clear. In the Mags court the legal authority is the clerk. His or her task is to direct the bench on points of law. The legal direction in this case would be that this is statute law, therefore not open to judgement, so the bench would, in effect, be directed to find the defendant guilty if there was strong evidence of non-compliance (which might be just not having a data plate or Type Approval).

Indeed, but does the Clerk of the Court also decide the consequences for the defendant (or do the mags have anything to actually do in such cases rather than communicate same from the bench) ?

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

I am sorry that statement is not necessarily correct,there is nothing in the BEBA rules that requires BEBA members to sell bikes that meet a recognised quality standard. It would be good to see BEBA taking a forward view and insist that any bike imported/sold by a BEBA member meets EN15194,soon we wil all have to meet this standard anyway-BEBA membership would then be a recognition of meeting an acceptable quality standard.
Dave
Kudoscycles

David I am referring to code of practice for importers specifically the following
Only market models that meet the current legal requirements

 

[GaRRy]

There are now at least two bike suppliers who have posted on this thread that their bikes are fully EN15194 compliant (But as 250w motors not covered by old uk law). Yet in both cases most if not all of their bikes are supplied with a throttle which is not allowed as part of EN15194.

As already asked where does it say in any current Law this is allowed ? and if not allowed how did they pass EN15194 ?

Please note this is not meant as a critism in any way of those suppliers as a large number of others also seem to offer the same so historically amongst suppliers this seems to of become accepted as ok. But just because its accepted and also IMHO perfectly sensible does not make it legal.

 

[GaRRy]

David I am referring to code of practice for importers specifically the following
Only market models that meet the current legal requirements

But that is the point are they?. Where does it say a 250w bike with a throttle is allowed in law ?

Just because its a accepted pratice amongst UK suppliers does not make it legal

 

[tillson]

Indeed, but does the Clerk of the Court also decide the consequences for the defendant (or do the mags have anything to actually do in such cases rather than communicate same from the bench) ?

The Clerk is usually the only person who has any legal training, unless it is a stipendiary magistrate sitting. The Clerk will advise the magistrates about the law in terms of what constitutes an offence and the associated penalties. The magistrates job is the asses the evidence which has been presented and to decide upon guilt or innocence. Depending on the outcome, they then decide what level of penalty ( the Clerk will advise what is available to them) to hand down.

 

[Scimitar]

You are actually coming across as quite a dishonest, untrustworthy and nasty individual.

I've already told you - your opinion counts for nothing, but you can't seem to get your head around that.
Just you carry on with your self-righteous, holier-than-thou hypocrisy and I'll carry on with my way.
Sheesh, it's just so easy to wind you up - you really should develop a thicker skin, Grandma.

 

[jazper53]

There are now at least two bike suppliers who have posted on this thread that their bikes are fully EN15194 compliant (But as 250w motors not covered by old uk law). Yet in both cases most if not all of their bikes are supplied with a throttle which is not allowed as part of EN15194.

As already asked where does it say in any current Law this is allowed ? and if not allowed how did they pass EN15194 ?

Please note this is not meant as a critism in any way of those suppliers as a large number of others also seem to offer the same so historically amongst suppliers this seems to of become accepted as ok. But just because its accepted and also IMHO perfectly sensible does not make it legal.

Interesting, I wonder if those policeman in my county(east sussex) who are riding a well known make of e-bikes, are also breaking the law? if so, maybe they should start arresting themselves, make a great story for the Sunday Sport.

 

[Jeremy]

Indeed, but does the Clerk of the Court also decide the consequences for the defendant (or do the mags have anything to actually do in such cases rather than communicate same from the bench) ?

No, all the clerk can do direct that the verdict (where there is clear evidence of a breach of statute) has to be guilty. The bench decides the sentence, and this depends on the circumstance. For example, if the case was brought following a routine stop by a police officer, with no evidence presented of dangerous riding, excessive speed etc, then I suspect that the bench might either award a small fine or perhaps even an absolute discharge. However, if the circumstances included injury and charges that included other breaches, such as riding a motor vehicle without insurance, registration, an appropriate licence etc then the bench might well decide that their sentencing powers weren't sufficient and could pass it to the Crown Court for sentencing.

 

[Jeremy]

There are now at least two bike suppliers who have posted on this thread that their bikes are fully EN15194 compliant (But as 250w motors not covered by old uk law). Yet in both cases most if not all of their bikes are supplied with a throttle which is not allowed as part of EN15194.

As already asked where does it say in any current Law this is allowed ? and if not allowed how did they pass EN15194 ?

Please note this is not meant as a critism in any way of those suppliers as a large number of others also seem to offer the same so historically amongst suppliers this seems to of become accepted as ok. But just because its accepted and also IMHO perfectly sensible does not make it legal.

The plain and straightforward answer is that if a Type Approved ebike is subsequently modified to a build standard that is materially different to that originally approved then it no longer carries any Type Approval. This is enshrined in the EU regulations covering Type Approval in general and is something that every Notified Body and Head of Type Approval (and I was both a few years ago) will be aware of.

Therefore, an ebike that purports to be Type Approved to EN15194 but which is fitted with a throttle is no longer Type Approved. This could be changed by an exemption issued by the DfT, but I have been unable to find one, neither has flecc.

 

[tillson]

I've already told you - your opinion counts for nothing, but you can't seem to get your head around that.
Just you carry on with your self-righteous, holier-than-thou hypocrisy and I'll carry on with my way.
Sheesh, it's just so easy to wind you up - you really should develop a thicker skin, Grandma.

No need for the thick skin Dave, I have been dealing with scum for years.

The only point that I am making is that I believe that it is wrong to lie, to make false statements, and to pervert the course of justice. I am clearly out of kilter with your way of thinking because you perceive a person who holds these values to be guilty of hypocrisy, a holier than thou attitude and self righteousness. I'm quite happy for you to think of me in this way as I try my best to live an honest life. I don't always succeed, but I try. Unfortunately there is plenty of scum circulating, ready and eager lie and cheat their way through life. I know that, I come across it, it's unpleasant and I deal with it.

As a final point, I notice that you haven't posted an alternative viewpoint as to why you so strongly believe in lying and cheating. I must confess that I am curious to know where you are coming from on this one.

Enjoy your day, it's beautiful here this morning.

 

[flecc]

Interesting, I wonder if those policeman in my county(east sussex) who are riding a well known make of e-bikes, are also breaking the law? if so, maybe they should start arresting themselves, make a great story for the Sunday Sport.

They are, but they are also aware of the current "blind eye" policy towards this, pending the change in the law, and the fact that a prosecution can be prevented from reaching a court. About the latter point I remain as before tight-lipped.

 

[Jeremy]

Interesting, I wonder if those policeman in my county(east sussex) who are riding a well known make of e-bikes, are also breaking the law? if so, maybe they should start arresting themselves, make a great story for the Sunday Sport.

It's a good example. My guess is that the police force concerned may not have double checked the law but may have relied on the suppliers assurance. This would normally be the case when buying vehicles - customers don't generally ask car dealers, for example, whether their cars have been Type Approved.

The problem in the UK is twofold. Firstly we have been very slow to remove the old statutes and formally adopt EU regulations. This has created a perfect environment for exploitation of the market.

Those importing and selling EU approved ebikes can, quite rightly, claim that they are allowed to sell them under EU regulations. This is perfectly right and proper, provided the bikes they are selling are approved to EN15194 and have not been modified prior to sale.

Those importing and selling non-EU approved ebikes, however, often seem to be ignoring the requirement to demonstrate their compliance with UK SI 1168 and UK SI 1176. Unless a non-EU approved ebike has been approved to the requirements in these statutes, and carries the appropriate plate verifying this, then it is a motor vehicle.

The question is, should the can of worms be opened?

A while ago I would have said "NO!, let sleeping dogs lie!". Now I believe we have reached a position where there are so many illegal bikes, of all shapes and sizes, that we need to think again. It is, I believe, unreasonable to expect customers to check the legality of any ebike they are thinking of buying. The onus should be on vendors to make it clear which models are legal and which are not and let the customer decide based on his or her willingness to accept the small risk.

 

[GaRRy]

No, all the clerk can do direct that the verdict (where there is clear evidence of a breach of statute) has to be guilty. The bench decides the sentence, and this depends on the circumstance. For example, if the case was brought following a routine stop by a police officer, with no evidence presented of dangerous riding, excessive speed etc, then I suspect that the bench might either award a small fine or perhaps even an absolute discharge. However, if the circumstances included injury and charges that included other breaches, such as riding a motor vehicle without insurance, registration, an appropriate licence etc then the bench might well decide that their sentencing powers weren't sufficient and could pass it to the Crown Court for sentencing.

So in a worst case scenario someone could end up spending up to 2 years in jail and getting a criminal record (using a motorised vehicle while serving a driving ban ) . Which is why this question is important ?


yes I accept not likely but certainly possible