Which to make as a retro mod isn't difficult (well it shouldn't be..lol), sensor pulses charge C wot has a bleed resistor (maybe calculated to about 2 seconds). charge on C enables switched throttle output to controller
Approved ebike list?
- Thread starter Jeremy
- Start date
d8veh, I'd much prefer not to name names when it comes to vendors, as I couldn't hope to be wholly fair or inclusive to many of them by doing so.
As said before, vendors have a responsibility, I believe, to be honest with potential customers about the legal status of their products. Some clearly are, and make it clear that their ebikes are approved. Some are less clear in their advertising, may may still be legal and some are clearly selling products that aren't legal to use.
The power debate when it comes to EN15194 testing has been had before, but if you want to review it then I suggest reading the acceptable means of compliance for motor power that is in Annex D, on page 33.
If you read it carefully you will see that if the acceleration curve of the motor/controller is deliberately slowed down by design, then the actual motor current, and hence torque and power, can be raised to a level significantly greater than the 250W limit would imply.
I very strongly suspect that some manufacturers have taken advantage of this to allow much higher current limits to be used than would seem possible under the normal motor power test method. This then results in their ebikes having much better hill climbing ability, yet still remaining within the overall speed restriction. It's a clever bit of engineering, in my view, akin to the way F1 exploits the regulations!
Those with the Panasonic type of crank drive unit do not need to be concerned about the 200/250 watt issue, it doesn't exist for them. The regulations speak of continuous power output, but the power being pulsed on crank strokes by the torque sensor means these have no continuous output, the power regularly drops momentarily to near zero.
Here's a consumption graph showing that effect during riding, the power swinging between zero and 400 watts:
Here's a consumption graph showing that effect during riding, the power swinging between zero and 400 watts:
Is there a definition of the period defined as "continuous", obviously from the graph above there are periods ~ albeit very short ~ where the power is continuously above 250w.
Other than the fact that alot of those using a throtle are using it to get started from as standstill and then pedalling which then would not be able to do.Which to make as a retro mod isn't difficult (well it shouldn't be..lol), sensor pulses charge C wot has a bleed resistor (maybe calculated to about 2 seconds). charge on C enables switched throttle output to controller
6km rule ?
However.. pulses would also be generated by the crank turning backwards, maybe the RC charge/discharge time can be adjusted for a suitable period before further turning of the crank (in either direction) would be required ?
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Seems to me even the vendors are not sure on law either as still yet to see any evidence that a 250w bike with a throttle complies with EN15194 yet many claim it does ?
It is worth noting that EN15194 does specifically allow "start up assistance" :
"4.2.4.3 Start up assistance mode
4.2.4.3.1 Requirements
EPAC can be equipped with a start up assistance mode up to 6 km/h designed speed or lower values as specified by the manufacturer. Unauthorized use shall be prevented.
This mode shall be activated by the voluntary and maintained action of the user either when riding without pedalling or when the user is pushing the cycle."
I have just checked the bike and I have full throttle control without turning the pedals.
I purchased it secondhand and it was unused by the previous owner from new and to my knowledge it has not been modified.
I too do not want to cast any ill feelings against David. I have met him in the past and came away with the impression that he is a totally honorable man.
All our bikes (like the majority, jeremy) are made in China, and all have EN15194 certification.
They all have a 250 watt Bafang motor and throttle.
EN15194 certification in China is done either by Chinese companies or by two internationally accredited laboratories - SGS and TUF. France will only accept EN15194 done by SGS. The rest of Europe, including the UK, accepts EN15194 done by SGS or by Chinese companies. Some of our bikes have SGS certification, but all will in 2013.
The law is ambiguous, and we make this clear to our customers, who are an intelligent, discerning lot who can make up their own minds. Some examples - I spelled everything out clearly to a lawyer the other day, who then proceeded to buy one of our SGS approved models. I have also sold to policemen, making them aware of the duality of the law and whenever I sell to motorhomers, who are almost always going to take their bikes to Europe at some point I ask if they would like the throttle removed as it will be illegal over there. Yes, you've guessed the answer!
With regard to labelling, as I understand it, the standard only calls for the word 'EN19154' to be affixed clearly somewhere on the bike. Some companies do better than that but many don't bother affixing any label. Perhaps you could give some examples that you think worth recommending here.
I think this situation is tolerable as long as the customer is made aware of the situation, and I certainly do this.
One day soon this matter will no doubt be tested in law.
Must get my wig, gown and mallet out of the cupboard again....
Hatti
They all have a 250 watt Bafang motor and throttle.
EN15194 certification in China is done either by Chinese companies or by two internationally accredited laboratories - SGS and TUF. France will only accept EN15194 done by SGS. The rest of Europe, including the UK, accepts EN15194 done by SGS or by Chinese companies. Some of our bikes have SGS certification, but all will in 2013.
The law is ambiguous, and we make this clear to our customers, who are an intelligent, discerning lot who can make up their own minds. Some examples - I spelled everything out clearly to a lawyer the other day, who then proceeded to buy one of our SGS approved models. I have also sold to policemen, making them aware of the duality of the law and whenever I sell to motorhomers, who are almost always going to take their bikes to Europe at some point I ask if they would like the throttle removed as it will be illegal over there. Yes, you've guessed the answer!
With regard to labelling, as I understand it, the standard only calls for the word 'EN19154' to be affixed clearly somewhere on the bike. Some companies do better than that but many don't bother affixing any label. Perhaps you could give some examples that you think worth recommending here.
I think this situation is tolerable as long as the customer is made aware of the situation, and I certainly do this.
One day soon this matter will no doubt be tested in law.
Must get my wig, gown and mallet out of the cupboard again....
Hatti
So much of that 'code of practice' is unacceptable to many of us importers,that is why many of us are reluctant to join BEBA-there are some parts of that code of practice that were dreamed up to protect certain influential members but are not necessarily for the general good-if you search back historically you will read the full story,things haven't changed over time!
Making it a condition that all BEBA members bikes meet EN15194 is a no brainer as far as I am concerned,but I understand why BEBA is reluctant to introduce such a rule.
Dave
Kudoscycles
There seems to be a mix of some vendors wanting to be "optimistic" as to what is actually legal, some being simply confused by the whole thing, and some who don't seem to care about legality at all.
Given the difficulty in getting hold of all the required legislative documents and standards, and then the amount of time it takes to read through them carefully and understand the implications, this probably isn't too surprising.
In my view the major failing has been the governments failure to tidy up the law, they should have done it years ago, long before we got to the present situation where we now have a seemingly rapid growth in ebike sales.
If the law is suddenly rigidly enforced now, then there will be a large number of vendors and ebike owners facing serious problems. There is a parallel here with the situation when the government suddenly clamped down on microlight aircraft use in the early 80s. That put several companies out of business overnight and caused hundreds of people to have to scrap relatively expensive aircraft.
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Sounds like an excellent move for a vendors association, one that would instil a great deal of public confidence in the legality of the products that its members retail. Gets my vote!
So on what basis are these companies and organisations passing a bike with a throttle as EN15194 compliant ?. Seems to me they have no more idea of the law either !!!. Im beginning to suspect that most of this is in reality self certification and so anything a manufacturer wants is just deemed compliant whether it is or not.
As I see it this is the only real area of contention and no one appears to be able to prove that this is legal ?
Jeremy,why don't you ask BEBA why they don't insist on this quality standard? The answer would be most enlightening and also answer so much of your thread.
Dave
Kudoscycles
Hopefull not that bad as provided the bike is documented correctly to say passed EN15194 then owner will just need to remove the throttle (or stop it working above 6kph).
I'm very well aware that the vast majority of bikes come either from Taiwan or China, thanks! I've repaired enough of them now.............
If they have a throttle and that is operable above 6 km/h, without the pedals rotating, then they do not comply with EN15194 and must not carry a label suggesting they do. Fitting the label to a non-Type Approved product is probably a more serious matter than fitting the throttle, as it suggests to the customer that the product complies with the regulation that it refers to, when it clearly may not.
The law isn't at all "ambiguous". Certainly it isn't easy to wade through all of the applicable, or otherwise, regulations, but once one has done that then the law itself is very clear indeed.
That is correct. The data plate affixed to the frame with the specification clearly marked on it that I referred to earlier is only a requirement if the ebike is approved to the UK EAPC regulations, rather than the EU EPAC regulations.
I agree, the key thing here is making customers aware, so they can make an informed choice. Many adverts I've read don't do as you do and make the situation clear to potential customers, something that I feel is wrong.
OMG.....same old going around in circles.....
It IS nearly xmas you know, have some of you men not got better things to do than quoting statutes and prosecutions.....like for example buying xmas presents for your wives/girlfriends/families......or even, heaven forbid, getting out and riding your bikes, whether they are legal, illegal or residing in the grey area of confusion...hey, enjoy them while you can because listening to some members on here we could all be in jail very soon.
I tell you what, the way some people talk on here, if the recession or ridiculous laws dont kill this industry dead, certain people are making a damn good attempt at doing the job for them by potentially frightening off any new customers.
Lighten up fpr gods sake, lets just concentrate on enjoying our cycling.
Merry Christmas everyone from sunny Spain
Lynda
It IS nearly xmas you know, have some of you men not got better things to do than quoting statutes and prosecutions.....like for example buying xmas presents for your wives/girlfriends/families
......or even, heaven forbid, getting out and riding your bikes, whether they are legal, illegal or residing in the grey area of confusion...hey, enjoy them while you can because listening to some members on here we could all be in jail very soon. I tell you what, the way some people talk on here, if the recession or ridiculous laws dont kill this industry dead, certain people are making a damn good attempt at doing the job for them by potentially frightening off any new customers.
Lighten up fpr gods sake, lets just concentrate on enjoying our cycling.
Merry Christmas everyone from sunny Spain
Lynda
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
No.
Motor manufacturers used to quote continupus power as a maximum. Their aim was to get it as high as possible because most customers wanted as much as possible. Now for ebikes they want it to be quoted as low as possible, whilst still delivering high power. In theory they can quote "maximum continuous power" as low as they want because they could argue that the motor wears out too fast if you exceed the "maximum continuous power".
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