No idea Ferdinand, to my knowledge this has never been raised in association with cyclist deaths.
The nearest to the issue has been exercises to get cyclists to appreciate what a driver can see from one of these high cab trucks.
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Yet another London female cyclist dies
- Thread starter oldtom
- Start date
The nearest to the issue has been exercises to get cyclists to appreciate what a driver can see from one of these high cab trucks.
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Actually the thread has covered all fatalities not just those from HGVs. That notwithstanding, if you make the overall statement of "1 female death per 1.4 million journeys (i.e. female journeys)" you have to make it valid, i.e. consider all RTA fatalities. On the other hand if you are confining it to accidents involving HGVs you must qualify the statement and say "1 female death involving an HGV per 1.4 million journeys". You can't have it both ways.
For goodness sake Michael, what is you agenda here?
I made it clear I posted on HGV related deaths, in my post with trhe data you are commenting on, I stressed four times that I was speaking of HGVs. I'm not having anything both ways:
One woman lost her life in an HGV related accident for every 1.4 million female commuting journeys.
One man lost his life in an HGV related accident in 50.4 million male commuting journeys.
Those are the facts which your obfuscation cannot alter.
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If you wish to post on all deaths, by all means do so, but don't quote me in any of those posts as you've been doing after I've repeatedly made it clear that I am posting about a gender specific problem.
And the way you've posed this is clearly misleading, since the proportion of the relevant female cyclists and journeys is far smaller than male ones. 12 times doesn't take these into account
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Absolutely no agenda, save wishing your statement to be correct with respect to context, which they now are as you state above. Google searches may bring up this thread and stat snippets like the ones you made for the sake of drama should be in context. I qualified the snippets in the post after yours but we seem to have gone down a route of befuddlement after that.
All that notwithstanding, this is a very important point. Are there links to the stories in the press where the female aspect is starting to be drawn out?
Michael
None I know of offhand. On the web I've previously found a reference to the BBC raising it a few years ago. Also TfL have raised the issue in some of the things they've said, including their assessment of the causes which I've also commented on in agreement.
Nothing from the government, the nearest they have got to the issue was in a 2009 report on the causes of cycle accidents nationally in which this paragraph appeared:
Heavy goods vehicles (HGVs)
HGVs present particular challenges for cyclists and are over-represented in cyclist fatalities (18% of fatal cycle accidents involved an HGV, compared with 4% of serious accidents). These accidents were more common at junctions where the main collision configuration was the HGV driver making a left turn while the cyclist was going ahead. ‘Vehicle blind spot’ and ‘passing too close to the cyclist’ were judged by the police to be key contributory factors. From the data, it appears that this is a particular issue for London and it has been the subject of recent research for Transport for London (Keigan et al., 2009). Ongoing work being carried out here will provide important lessons for other authorities.
But no later mentions of the gender disparity, even when every HGV related London death (8) was female in one year, which I think was 2009.
P.S. A search has revealed this Guardian article from 2010.
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I've seen some commentary on it, but mainly in the frame as women as victims society etc etc.
There was a long conversation on ctc recently.
I think the information is around for London to meet my question but the cross tab analysis will involve reading a lot of consecutive annual reports, which is tedious.
Ferdinand
There was a long conversation on ctc recently.
I think the information is around for London to meet my question but the cross tab analysis will involve reading a lot of consecutive annual reports, which is tedious.
Ferdinand
Unfortunately the CTC tend to divert anything raised on this subject back to an issue of trucks and drivers or traffic in general. I've always found them too biased to look dispassionately at any cyclist involvement aspect.
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There was something about it on the BBC this morning, where somebody was being interviewed. The BBC guy asked why it seemed to be more of a problem for women than than men. I don't think a lot of antisexists would have liked the answer from the cycling safetyexpert or whoever he was, though he was probably right.
I don't think that sexism is involved, other than by those with a political agenda.
My Mother, Wife and Sister have passed away, but I have a daughter and Grand daughter and female issues are important to me.
My Mother, Wife and Sister have passed away, but I have a daughter and Grand daughter and female issues are important to me.
The Evening Standard has written an article on this issue. No real conclusions or recommendations as such, but it is starting to be talked about it seems.
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/why-women-seem-to-be-more-vulnerable-around-traffic-blackspots-in-london-10341420.html
Michael
http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/why-women-seem-to-be-more-vulnerable-around-traffic-blackspots-in-london-10341420.html
Michael
Seems to be summarising old analysis and copying blogs not doing legwork.
In particular Rosamund Urwin, the journo, repeats the "Circle of Death" cluster thing, which doesn't prove what she says. Do a sensitivity test - make the circle slightly different - and the numbers shift dramatically.
Dr Sarah Wollaston MP (who I don't like, should admit) - grasping only one end of the stick:
“This is gendered,” argues Dr Sarah Wollaston, the Conservative MP for Totnes who has long campaigned for better cycling infrastructure and more funding. “I don’t think the Secretary of State can ignore this any longer: there are specific dangers to women from HGVs in London — and there’s something he could do about it tomorrow. I’m not saying we ban [lorries] all day, but let’s not have them out there at peak times for cyclists.”
When are peak times in London? HGVs are curently banned from I think 9pm to 7am for the peace of residents.
What is the rush hour proposal? How are builders supposed to start work at 7am or 8am? Will Londoners pay the extra building costs?
F
In particular Rosamund Urwin, the journo, repeats the "Circle of Death" cluster thing, which doesn't prove what she says. Do a sensitivity test - make the circle slightly different - and the numbers shift dramatically.
Dr Sarah Wollaston MP (who I don't like, should admit) - grasping only one end of the stick:
“This is gendered,” argues Dr Sarah Wollaston, the Conservative MP for Totnes who has long campaigned for better cycling infrastructure and more funding. “I don’t think the Secretary of State can ignore this any longer: there are specific dangers to women from HGVs in London — and there’s something he could do about it tomorrow. I’m not saying we ban [lorries] all day, but let’s not have them out there at peak times for cyclists.”
When are peak times in London? HGVs are curently banned from I think 9pm to 7am for the peace of residents.
What is the rush hour proposal? How are builders supposed to start work at 7am or 8am? Will Londoners pay the extra building costs?
F
No, as ever. On the BBC TV program "The Sunday Politics", MP Jeremy Corbyn raised the female v truck death problem, only for my MP, Gavin Barwell, to deliberately steer the discussion onto trucks, repeating the impractical suggestions of low front cabs and side fences and also talking about roads and legal measures. He'd successfuly derailed it, leading to nothing sensible being said.
Why they can't grasp that it's a simple education problem needing well targetted publicity I can't fathom. Do they insultingly believe women can't learn, or is it that they are just scared of offending the female electorate?
I would have thought the greatest offence a woman can suffer is being killed.
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It's a huge long piece, so there may be *something* in there.
It may require a fine toothcomb to find it.
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The message is spreading, today's BBC Radio 4 program "You and Yours" had a discussion about these deaths. The downside as usual was a government spokesman avoiding the gender aspect by speaking of the generic actions the government is taking, mentioning spending one billion pounds nationally over the next ten years on cycling facilities such as segregation.
When that was criticised as being very little over that time nationally, his response was that cycling facilities are cheap so the amount doesn't express the quantity. To my cynical mind what he said amounts to either very few thinly spread good facilities or widespread ineffective measures like more white lines on roads.
The main concentration of the program item was on low forward cabs, once again ignoring that the construction trucks that are involved in these deaths cannot use them on many sites. They made a feature of a Mercedes truck with such a cab as if it was a new idea, but they've long been available on municipal vehicles only ever used on roads and I remember some many decades ago.
This "You and Yours" program is available on the BBC i-player now on this link, the item is at 15.35 minutes and lasts just over 8 minutes.
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When that was criticised as being very little over that time nationally, his response was that cycling facilities are cheap so the amount doesn't express the quantity. To my cynical mind what he said amounts to either very few thinly spread good facilities or widespread ineffective measures like more white lines on roads.
The main concentration of the program item was on low forward cabs, once again ignoring that the construction trucks that are involved in these deaths cannot use them on many sites. They made a feature of a Mercedes truck with such a cab as if it was a new idea, but they've long been available on municipal vehicles only ever used on roads and I remember some many decades ago.
This "You and Yours" program is available on the BBC i-player now on this link, the item is at 15.35 minutes and lasts just over 8 minutes.
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Just seen this vid from 20th July and shows a motorcyle getting crushed by a lorry turniing into a junction blinded by his own window pillar and mirrors - Thankfully the rider managed to leap off and escaped any serious harm.
I like the way the truck driver went over to the bike when he backed away and tried to get it upright, as if the rider was just going to get on it and ride it away. That was criminally stupid driving. It could have beed a child crossing the road and he wouldn’t have seen it.
The driver should have paid more attention when turning into the road (the bit when the motorcyclist looked to his right) but what an awful design of motor vehicle! As you say, the driver was completely blinded by the windscreen pillar and mirror, and couldn't see a thing. How on earth is he supposed to turn corners like that when he can't see? A high cab, pillar and mirror next to each other means there's a huge blind spot.
I wonder if there's a place for something like the 360 degree view on the Nissan Qashqai which merges views from four cameras (front, back, and both sides under the wing mirrors) to give a birds-eye view on top of the car. Very effective indeed.