I sortof really agree, though I also think there's a big gulf between publicity/telling people what to do - and them actually translating that into awareness/changed behaviour. I have a dozy friend I like dearly, but who cycles much the way she walks and talks and lives generally - without much concentration. as a result she bumps into stuff and lives in a place that is permanently chaotic. no amount of talking will ever change it. I'm sure this has been suggested (so apologies and don't troll me for saying it) - but where I come from there used to be many accidents involving cars skidding into the rears of lorries and because the trucks are higher than the cars bonnet very serious injury as the cars crumple zones cannot absorb the impact - so they've changed trucks and given them lower rear barriers that cars can ram into (with injuries being much less severe as a result). I wonder, is there really no way of modifying a lorry so that cyclists wouldn't skid under the wheel in this kind of scenario?
Yet another London female cyclist dies
- Thread starter oldtom
- Start date
That's one of the suggestions that I've had to reply to previously on the basis of impracticality.
The involved HGVs are the construction site trucks, usually 3 or 4 axle 20 or 30 tonners. When entering sites they often have to cover very uneven ground and this rules out both low forward cabs and deep side fences. Both would bottom out on undulating ground and leave the trucks either stranded or with buckled up and broken side fences.
Forgive me for saying it, I'm not having a go at you, but only those understanding the issue are in a position to comment realistically. I do since I've carried out exactly these deliveries in London.
The real problem is a gender one as I've demonstrated and TfL and others have commented. I agree about the odd female case you mention since I have a female friend who perfectly fits that description, but they are a minority. Most of those killed this year have been mostly young and obviously intelligent women, one was a research scientist so hardly likely to be scatty or unmethodical.
As I remarked earlier, the video evidence suggests they seem unaware of the potential danger of riding in the danger area. And as another member commented on a previous thread, there is a recognised issue of female spatial awareness. But I'm sure all these intelligent young women are easily capable of learning from well delivered information, which is why I think a correctly targetted campaign could make a very big difference and stop this unnecessary carnage.
That mean an end to comments on such irrelevancies as banning trucks, all traffic etc and concentration only on what the issue really is.
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Anybody got the figures for other large UK cities?
Do they also show the same disproportion of male/female deaths?
Do they also show the same disproportion of male/female deaths?
I don't think it is to do with machismo, it is to do with confidence, knowledge and experience, and perhaps culture (women conditioned not to be assertive?) - and that male Cyclists seem to have whatever is needed to a greater degree.
I think this is mainly a London thing, though perhaps with work in other larger cities. I have only biked across London recently not commuted at rush hour.
Personally I would never cycle up the inside of a car at traffic lights, never mind a bus or a tipper truck - unless there was a +very+ good reason and an escape route. If I am cycling in busy slow moving traffic lines etc I treat myself as a car and stop in the middle of the lane so that I am seen and there isn't any space forna car to make the overtaking manoeuvre that will not help it anyway.
That might change in London but I would need to try it.
In slightly faster traffic on a wide enough to overtake road I would be about 1.5m from the kerb, moving out into a blocking position through each dangerously narrow pinch point as they arrive.
The reason I am putting a e-assist on my bike is so that when I need to I can be close enough to a 30 limit to not slow traffic significantly for a few miles, and get through dodgy A roads asnquickly as possible.
F
Michael has it.
The arguments I want to counter are around the belief that the correct answer is always +only+ to do things to motorists, whether it is banning them, hanging and and flogging them, or whatever. And to face down the claim that advocating anything else is 'victim blaming', or in this case soem sort of gender bias.
Those crude suggestions are red herrings, and prevent the reasons for the casualties being addressed from both cycling and driving sides.
Police assessments at the scene are that blame and mistakes are shared.
What I really need are:
Death and ideally Seriously Injured stats for London cyclists, by type of vehicle, gender, and ideally type of accident, over a period long enough to show the growth and fall off in male numbers, then the growth in female.
Ferdinand
I've looked previously with no success Mike, but there is the odd comment that suggests there is a small degree of national element in this problem.
But it is mainly a London problem for two reasons. First the huge growth in London cycling commuting following the introduction of the congestion charge. Second, the number of very large long term construction projects the central area of London has been suffering. For example:
The Olympics Park
The Thames Water ring main tunnel.
The international rail station, effectively the reconstruction of Paddington Station and an attached hotel.
The immense Crossrail project, cutting tunnels right across London east to west, and building it's underground stations which connect to tube stations. This is still going on and is the largest construction project in Europe.
The Thames Tideway sewage tunnel project exploratory work and following main work. This is another east-west huge tunnel under London. All these tunnels have to have numerous access points throughout the central area for removal of spoil.
The complete refurbishment of the London Undergound system, a many years project.
Numerous new office blocks etc being built in the City and some surrounding areas.
New East London housing.
All these have needed hundreds of large construction trucks working continuously, making them a major element in the traffic.
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I've found it difficult to enough information on this, all too often there's partial and somtimes misleading information. I wish I'd kept the collection of scattered details I'd managed to assemble previously so that I could have repeated them.
However, the reduction in male deaths is very obvious when one of their four-fifths have been killed this year while six of the one fifth of female cyclists were killed. Such previous figures that exist show a similar disproportion in many years.
The female figures have been very variable, as I remarked before, in one year about four years ago every HGV related death was female, so they haven't necessarily been increasing on average.
I've been ignoring car related deaths since there are far less of them and very often the drivers have been convicted, making it not an issue for cyclists to attend to. However, they have been mainly male deaths as one would expect, given the proportions.
Hence my only being interested in the one issue, female HGV related deaths which are a big problem. That's not just me saying it, the BBC have highlighted it twice now and TfL have said as much.
By all means search for information on the internet as I did previously, but it took me a very long time and I don't want to do it all over again. There's enough information already to see what the problem is.
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Thanks Flecc,
I get the impression that many, not all, accidents are tipper lorries and as you say, London is heaving with these at the moment.
Buses, and other low sided vehicles probably tend to push many victims away rather than sweeping them underneath.
On thing that many do not realise is that the back wheels do not follow the front wheels around a corner. Length makes this worse, so a car driver may be unaware of the problem that a longer vehicle has.
Seems to me that the only answer is to fence off the cycle lane near the junction, make it go left around the corner for about 5 yards, so that cyclists are left with a simple problem of crossing the road.
Obviously, the London hooligan lycra will ignore this and stay outside the fence, but law abiding women will probably use it.
We do have a Police force, their primary duty is the protection of life, so they could take up station at such places with power to arrest, confiscate bikes etc.
I get the impression that many, not all, accidents are tipper lorries and as you say, London is heaving with these at the moment.
Buses, and other low sided vehicles probably tend to push many victims away rather than sweeping them underneath.
On thing that many do not realise is that the back wheels do not follow the front wheels around a corner. Length makes this worse, so a car driver may be unaware of the problem that a longer vehicle has.
Seems to me that the only answer is to fence off the cycle lane near the junction, make it go left around the corner for about 5 yards, so that cyclists are left with a simple problem of crossing the road.
Obviously, the London hooligan lycra will ignore this and stay outside the fence, but law abiding women will probably use it.
We do have a Police force, their primary duty is the protection of life, so they could take up station at such places with power to arrest, confiscate bikes etc.
Buses and coaches have also figured among the HGV deaths over the years, so they don't protect as one might expect. That's why I disregard suggestions for side fences on trucks, since any long wheelbase vehicle needs a few inches of central clearance to cope with traffic calming humps and potholes. That's enough to crush and kill as has happened.
Many of the roads involved have no cycle lane at that point, too narrow. It's then just cyclists alongside trucks in the same lane.
The Metropolitan Police had an intensive action program for a couple of months last Autumn after the sudden spate of cyclist deaths within a couple of weeks. You may remember my posts at the time. During that they were watching all traffic at junctions, stopping offending drivers and cyclists and warning them of the dangers. They also issued many warnings and tickets, I seem to remember about 15,000 of them, roughly equally divided among cyclists and drivers.
There was some pointlessness in this though, since cyclists were warned for crossing with pedestrians on a red light, one of the very things that keeps them safe!
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That's one of the worst aspects, the terrible effect on family and friends. Some of the young women killed this year and last were EU working immigrants, their families living elsewhere in Europe and needing to come over here after the tragic death of their daughters.I know someone knows her personally. Hope her family is ok
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Flecc,
One point of interest in your reply is that cycling has increased enormously in London because of the congestion charge.
I do not suppose it will ever be possible to find out, but I do wonder just how experienced these female cyclists were. Also, did they have driving licences.
A lack of road sense and danger awareness is a possible factor.
Slightly away from the topic, a local family in my village raised two sons to adult hood. Both were right scallywags and seemingly unaware of danger. Both got themselves killed, but tellingly, I noticed that the young son of one of them also has no sense of danger and was riding his 3 wheeler alone on the main road, 400 yards away from home at the age of 5 years.
So, Men as well as Women can exhibit a lowered sense of awareness, just that the London figures at least suggest that women are more prone to this.
I do not see this as sexist, no women suffer testicular cancer, no men suffer ovarian cancer. It is a simple fact that politicians must face and take action.
One point of interest in your reply is that cycling has increased enormously in London because of the congestion charge.
I do not suppose it will ever be possible to find out, but I do wonder just how experienced these female cyclists were. Also, did they have driving licences.
A lack of road sense and danger awareness is a possible factor.
Slightly away from the topic, a local family in my village raised two sons to adult hood. Both were right scallywags and seemingly unaware of danger. Both got themselves killed, but tellingly, I noticed that the young son of one of them also has no sense of danger and was riding his 3 wheeler alone on the main road, 400 yards away from home at the age of 5 years.
So, Men as well as Women can exhibit a lowered sense of awareness, just that the London figures at least suggest that women are more prone to this.
I do not see this as sexist, no women suffer testicular cancer, no men suffer ovarian cancer. It is a simple fact that politicians must face and take action.
Much more than suggest though Mike.
I have done some back research on the numbers from January 2008 to date. I cannot absolutely guarantee precision since one document's author acknowledges a discrepancy of 1 and I also know there is an error of 1 female and posibly 2 in last years figure.
However, the totals of HGV-cyclist related deaths found from January 2008 to date is 26 male and 30 female.
Since females form between 20% and 25% of the cycling commuters, depending on who you believe, the problem is very obvious. Taking the higher figure, the 25% of female cyclists have suffered 54% of the HGV related deaths, the 75% of male cyclists the remaining 46%.
And the problem is getting worse. In 2009 when there were far fewer cycle commuting, 8 HGV related London deaths were of females. This year in under six months it's already 6 deaths, on target for 12 female deaths for the whole year. But the overall London cycling death rate hasn't risen, staying around 14 each year.
That's why I raise this issue, in the hope that notice is taken and these deaths don't carry on.
Here is the most dramatic way I can think of to show the seriousness of this problem, expressing the death rate by commuting journeys using this year's deaths to date.
Females: One death per 1.4 million commuting journeys.
Males: One death per 50.4 million commuting journeys.
Data used:
HGV related deaths 2015 = 1 male, 6 female.
Number of cycle commuters 280,000, doing two rides each day.
Proportion of female cyclists = 25%
24 working weeks of 5 days = 120 days.
Data source: TfL (Transport for London)
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Just to be clear, this is one death caused by an HGV over those journeys, not simply one death over those journeys. For that statistic you'd need to use the overall cyclist deaths this year including the one other male - it still adds up to a compelling statistic.
Michael
No Michael, it's exactly as I stated:
1 female death per 1.4 million journeys (i.e. female journeys)
1 male death per 50.4 million journeys (i.e. male journeys)
And I avoid saying "caused by HGV" since it implies driver blame.
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In which case you need to use the ratio 2 to 6 male to female this year, not 1 to 6. There have been 8 fatalities this year.
No again Michael, I made it clear I was speaking of HGV related deaths, since that is the only issue I have been raising throughout the thread. The ratio is 1 to 6 for those deaths. As I posted earlier, there is no large gender imbalance in car related deaths so this issue does not apply in relation to those.
The second man you mention was a few days ago and in collision with a car in the outskirts of London. The car driver has been arrested on suspicion of dangerous driving.
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