When 15 mph isn't enough

[flecc]

I do not consider the fact that I use a LiIon powered cordless drill to in any way indicate that I need assistance when drilling holes, and I feel the same way about my e-bike too.

But that's your view, not the way it will be looked at in law. Drills aren't power assist with you doing the work and the motor adding help, they are a replacement technology.

Neither the government or the EU intend e-bikes to be the modern way, i.e. taking over from normal cycling. They are to assist those who need assistance, regardless of whether those who don't need assistance choose to use them.

I don't understand why this demand for the limit to be changed. As I've already posted, anyone can have any size motor they like on a bike and cycle around at 30 mph even, no-one is stopping them. But for blindingly obvious reasons, they have to have a number plate on their rear mudguard and some third party insurance, i.e, registered as in the moped class.

We used to do this in the 1950s with petrol add on motors for bikes, often capable of well over 20 mph, and it wasn't any problem.

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[Fecn]

Well today i found a nice short steep hill and topped 31mph and loved it but i guess i might be one of the weird ones Nigel.

Best I've managed to date was 38.5mph, but I wasn't even pedalling then. Just trying really really hard not to brake.

 

[The Maestro]

no-one is stopping them. But for blindingly obvious reasons, they have to have a number plate on their rear mudguard and some third party insurance, i.e, registered as in the moped class.
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Yes no-one and nothing is stopping them apart from having to jump through so many hoops that people say "ah balls to it, where did I park my car again?"

 

[flecc]

SHOULD e-bikes only be for people who are below the norm?

Personally I say no.

As you see above, there is no restriction on bikes remaining as bikes but having higher speeds, and even more power. They just need to be registered and this didn't stop us having fun in the 1950s.

If a number do this and have faster and more powerful bikes, the manufacturers will quickly jump in with new models to suit.

P.S. Just seen your above post. It's not too much hassle to register, though there's some extra cost initially. Tax disc is free, insurance will be very low cost. After all, do you really think a higher speed class won't have restrictions? They've got one in Germany and it has compulsory insurance etc and some other restrictions, plus compulsory helmet wearing, all very different from the normal e-bike class.
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[Caph]

We used to do this in the 1950s with petrol add on motors for bikes, often capable of well over 20 mph, and it wasn't any problem.

Flecc, I remember you mentioning this a while back and imagine my surprise when I peered through the window of a small bike/moped shop on holiday in Dinard last summer and saw a small range of these bikes!

Unfortunately the shop was closed and although I tried to take a photo with my phone it was too dark and didn't turn out. They even looked like the ones in the newspaper ad, really old looking, but with the motor and tiny petrol tank all built in to and over the front wheel.

I got really excited about seeing them. My girlfriend thought I was crazy!

 

[Miles]

I'm pretty much in agreement with flecc about EAPC. What annoys me, though, is that the bottom rung of the motor vehicle ladder requires a proper motorcycle helmet to be worn, for the same 15mph limit. If that could be altered to allow the use of an approved bicycle helmet, it would be a step in the right direction....

 

[flecc]

They even looked like the ones in the newspaper ad, really old looking, but with the motor and tiny petrol tank all built in to and over the front wheel.

They would have been the 49cc French VeloSolex which I used to service. They were a complete bike rather than an add-on, and they stayed in production longer than any other, from 1946 to 1982 I think. There's an electric version just been introduced.
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[Miles]

Have a look here, Caph: Smiths Autocycles

 

[MonVal Electra]

This is perfectly clear and well put, but I think this all hinges on the question of (forgetting the law) SHOULD e-bikes only be for people who are below the norm?

Personally I say no.

Time to update the bicycle, not just make a bike for our obese and aging population to crawl around on.

Hmmmmm - So lets see

In order to update the bicycle for everyone else as well as the ones you've mentioned above:-

Firstly, we'd need to make it more comfortable to entice more people to ride in the first place and it must also be able to accommodate various heights from say 5ft 1 to approx 6ft 7 within a single frame. This way, it would make an ideal family as well as fleet use bike.

Secondly, we'd have to make it more practical for people to use for such things like shopping or carrying stuff around for their work. Ideally, having double the carrying capacity of current design.

Thirdly, we' d have to make it easier to ride, again, to entice more people and encourage more usage - so without question, an updated bicycle would need some form of asistance, I'm thinking perhaps electric

Fourthly , If we go with this electrical asstance thingy, then we need to ensure good range. Sooooo, the updated bicycle must also be able to carry at least 2 full sized batteries with the space to carry more whilst achieving at the same time, Nos 1 -3

...And finally, this updated machine must also be able to go faster than 15mph - can't really see this as a problem because, once the motor cuts out at that speed, the rider simply has to pedal harder (just kidding around)

Now I wonder if anyone would ever think to make such a machine ????????

 

[keithhazel]

Hmmmmm - So lets see

In order to update the bicycle for everyone else as well as the ones you've mentioned above:-

Firstly, we'd need to make it more comfortable to entice more people to ride in the first place and it must also be able to accommodate various heights from say 5ft 1 to approx 6ft 7 within a single frame. This way, it would make an ideal family as well as fleet use bike.

Secondly, we'd have to make it more practical for people to use for such things like shopping or carrying stuff around for their work. Ideally, having double the carrying capacity of current design.

Thirdly, we' d have to make it easier to ride, again, to entice more people and encourage more usage - so without question, an updated bicycle would need some form of asistance, I'm thinking perhaps electric

Fourthly , If we go with this electrical asstance thingy, then we need to ensure good range. Sooooo, the updated bicycle must also be able to carry at least 2 full sized batteries with the space to carry more whilst achieving at the same time, Nos 1 -3

...And finally, this updated machine must also be able to go faster than 15mph - can't really see this as a problem because, once the motor cuts out at that speed, the rider simply has to pedal harder (just kidding around)

Now I wonder if anyone would ever think to make such a machine ????????

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fifthly....short enough to easily get round them pesky turnstile gate things and not too long so easy to get on the train in the bike length spaces provided...

 

[MonVal Electra]

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fifthly....short enough to easily get round them pesky turnstile gate things and not too long so easy to get on the train in the bike length spaces provided...

Hello Keith

The MonVal Electra, at 8ft long, is the same size as your average tandem or a 'Burrows 8 freight', or the average longwheel base recumbent bicycle.

None of these machines will get through those 'pesky turnstile gate things' but then they weren't designed to. However, you can get them on a train if the carriage will take tandems.

By the way, did you know, the average 22/23inch diamond framed conventional bicycle is about 6ft in length?
... If you didn't, ya do now

 

[carigada]

If they need assistance, what does that tell us? It tells us that they are below the norm in average cycling ability, for there's the norm who can and do cycle without power assist.

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There are other reasons for people to ride assisted bikes, other than below average cycling ability.

I use my Agattu so that I don't get to work hot and sweaty. I wouldn't classify myself as having below average cycling ability, and I can actually do my commuting trip quicker on my non-assisted Marin but when I do it takes me at least an hour before I stop 'glowing'.

 

[rog_london]

They would have been the 49cc French VeloSolex which I used to service. They were a complete bike rather than an add-on, and they stayed in production longer than any other, from 1946 to 1982 I think. There's an electric version just been introduced.
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The other picture was of a Cyclemaster - a complete engine, small fuel tank, and everything else needed built into the rear wheel of an otherwise standard steel-framed roadster.

My Dad had one for several years - in his slow climb up the food chain from Electricity Board meter reader he was attending night school in Oldham (we lived in Salford) and did that daily commute that way.

I can't remember the engine size - something like 25cc two stroke. There was an extra lever on the left handlebar which was a clutch lever to engage the engine (no gears) and it had a latch with a release trigger, so when you pulled the clutch lever all the way to disengage the clutch it latched down, and you operated the release trigger with your first finger while holding the clutch lever in with the other three. On the right handlebar was a throttle control lever with a friction plate so it stayed where you put it until moved. No fancy twist-grip controls back then. Magneto electrics - no wiring at all outside the engine.

You pulled on the petrol tap (it used an oil/petrol mix like a lawn mower), pedalled away, opened the throttle a bit, and released the clutch, and with a bit of luck - maybe a LOT of luck - the engine would start, and away you went.

I recall it would 'do' about 20mph. It needed a number plate (as in the pic) and very cheap third party insurance but of course you didn't need a helmet - a flat cloth cap was the uniform of choice for almost all outdoor activities back then. We're talking about the early 1950s.

Just goes to show you - we had a family involvement in ebikes well over 50 years ago, and long before they were called ebikes!

Rog.

 

[the_killjoy]

So does anyone have any details of a 'registered' electric bike and would like to tell us just what hoops they had to go through to get it registered ?

 

[Fecn]

So does anyone have any details of a 'registered' electric bike and would like to tell us just what hoops they had to go through to get it registered ?

I have a mate who builds custom trikes (Hells Angels style things) and he tells me that an electric bike would need to go through the VOSA MVSA regs as a low-powered moped. It should cost you £47 and take about as long as it takes to get an MOT. Apparently there's test centres all around the country too. Searching for MSVA on the vosa.gov.uk website should get you all the info you need.

 

[Alex728]

when I learned French in the 1980s the vélomoteur was still a common item in our textbooks and prose, and us teens looked upon it with some envy that our counterparts across the Channel were allowed a motor vehicle at a slightly earlier age (14?)

TBH I think the problem with faster e-bikes is as much due to the market forces as regulations - neither the UK nor EU legislators are going to budge for some time, but also if you're going to have to get a helmet, CBT and insurance you might as get a petrol based scooter as they are way cheaper.. (although all my friends and colleagues who have done so seem to suffer more mishaps on these things!)

out of curiosity I wondered what the situation was in France today and found this -

Motoservices : le guide de la moto, du scooter et du 50 cm3 faciles

for the benefit of those who don't understand French I skimmed this and it seems the same regulations we have here re helmets, insurance etc have now been implemented in FR, although the minimum age remains 14.

There are also e-bikes there, but lower specified and not as developed as Britain's offerings - maybe Britain is actually leading the way as it stands?

 

[Miles]

I have a mate who builds custom trikes (Hells Angels style things) and he tells me that an electric bike would need to go through the VOSA MVSA regs as a low-powered moped. It should cost you £47 and take about as long as it takes to get an MOT. Apparently there's test centres all around the country too. Searching for MSVA on the vosa.gov.uk website should get you all the info you need.

Low-powered moped gets you a 1000 watt motor but there's still a 15mph speed limit.

 

[Tiberius]

Low-powered moped gets you a 1000 watt motor but there's still a 15mph speed limit.

Interestingly that is the "maximum design speed" not the speed at which the motor stops delivering power. The implication therefore is that you can't even pedal it over 25 kph.

Nick

 

[Alex728]

If you're gonna put in all that effort, surely you might as well pay the £74 and get the bike tested as a normal moped (in the same EU range as the 50cc machines popular with the French) then having a 28mph limit?

Incidentally the French site has a long essay strongly warning the often young owners of 50cc bikes against derestricting them (including the consequences of doing so), and many articles hinting the cops are stepping up enforcement of regulations.. all this is a country with a stereotype of not complying much with regulations (although I think the reality is France goes from blatant disobedience to harsh clampdowns in a much more extreme way than in Britain)

 

[Miles]

If you're gonna put in all that effort, surely you might as well pay the £74 and get the bike tested as a normal moped (in the same EU range as the 50cc machines popular with the French) then having a 28mph limit?

Sure, but the requirements for normal moped status are much more comprehensive.

From a design point of view, there are coherent possibilities which aren't catered for within the current categories...