When 15 mph isn't enough

[flecc]

Regulations.

The EAPC must also be fitted with a plate (where you can easily read it) showing the manufacturer's name, the battery voltage and motor power output.

It's all very well quoting this, but like so many of our laws, it has become irrelevant through being almost universally ignored throughout the whole of it's existence. A bit like the law that required London Cab drivers to carry a bale of hay for their horse!

Only Heinzmann, which you use MonVal, can be depended on to plate their motors, and they have sometimes been inaccurate anyway. Chinese hub motors aren't normally plated, and neither are Japanese motors like the Panasonic unit, in consequence of which all the e-bike makers don't bother either.

Anyway, the EAPC regualtions are about to be superceded by EU law.
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[flecc]

Correct, but as the UK won't ratify this directive, they are technically illegal in this country much to the chagrin of those of us using them. GRRRRRR!!!!

The EU Directive 2002/24/EC came into effect on May 9, 2003 and was passed into UK law on 10th November 2003.

As I understand it, the only problem is that the UK EAPC regulations weren't cancelled at that point.
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[MonVal Electra]

It's all very well quoting this, but like so many of our laws, it has become irrelevant through being almost universally ignored throughout the whole of it's existence. A bit like the law that required London Cab drivers to carry a bale of hay for their horse!

Only Heinzmann, which you use MonVal, can be depended on to plate their motors, and they have sometimes been inaccurate anyway. Chinese hub motors aren't normally plated, and neither are Japanese motors like the Panasonic unit, in consequence of which all the e-bike makers don't bother either.
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Hello Flecc

Because the 'MonVal Electra' bicycle is intended to be used by organisations and commercial entities as well as individuals, we have to comply fully with the law as is.

It would not look too good for example, if we sold a bike to a particuar police force and it then transpired that the machine they were using didn't comply with the law. The press would have a field day!!

Also, the criteria for use by alot of these entities insist on full compliance so that they themselves do not fall foul of various insurance policy fineprint.

This is one of the reasons why we use the Heinzmann motors and controllers, as you stated they are correctly plated and their function/tech spec etc complies fully as required with the various regulations that these entities have to follow.

 

[MonVal Electra]

The EU Directive 2002/24/EC came into effect on May 9, 2003 and was passed into UK law on 10th November 2003.

As I understand it, the only problem is that the UK EAPC regulations weren't cancelled at that point.
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...Not that simple unfortunately, when we were initially developing the MonVal Electra, we cited as you and others have done the various EU directives etc etc and were informed in writing about which we had to follow to stay the right side of the DFT and UK law.

... Hence our machine is fully complient with the UK EAPC regulations.

 

[flecc]

Hello Flecc

Because the 'MonVal Electra' bicycle is intended to be used by organisations and commercial entities as well as individuals, we have to comply fully with the law as is.

Of course, and as you say, the Heinzmann is a good choice for you.

I wouldn't like others like Bogmonster to start worrying about this though, since it's clearly redundant in common practice. If you are able to sell to the police, I'll be concerned that it might stir up a hornets nest around EAPC regulations for present users. Hopefully the EAPC regs will be amended or cancelled by the time that happens in favour of the EU regulations.

My opinion is that the EU regulations are fully in force in the UK and that any action under the EAPC regulations which conflicted could be overruled.
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[flecc]

...Not that simple unfortunately, when we were initially developing the MonVal Electra, we cited as you and others have done the various EU directives etc etc and were informed in writing about which we had to follow to stay the right side of the DFT and UK law.

... Hence our machine is fully complient with the UK EAPC regulations.

I know the DfT say this, but it seems it only arises from one civil servant's opinion when he used to look after e-bike matters. I firmly believe he and the DfT are wrong:

1) The EU directive was mandatory and we complied with the order to implement it within six months, doing that to the day. The UK cannot avoid compliance.

2) Therefore any action under our prior EAPC regulations which conflicted can be appealed and overruled by Europe. This is especially important since a high proportion of e-bikes in the UK have been sold since 1993 as 250 Watts, permitted by the EU regs but not the EAPC ones.

3) Any EU citizen is entitled by law to any EU benefit enjoyed by any other EU citizen. Clearly the use of e-bikes under EU law is one such benefit.
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[MonVal Electra]

. If you are able to sell to the police, I'll be concerned that it might stir up a hornets nest around EAPC regulations for present users. Hopefully the EAPC regs will be amended or cancelled by the time that happens in favour of the EU regulations.

My opinion is that the EU regulations are fully in force in the UK and that any action under the EAPC regulations which conflicted could be overruled.
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Hello Flecc

As you know, various interested parties have been trying to urge the adoption of the EU regs sooner rather than later for quite some time now. The biggest of the parties as you are probably aware is the Post Office, who wanted to build up a fleet of about 14000 E-bikes but obviously, needed clarity on where they stood in the eyes of the law as regards bike specification etc and even THEY can't get the DFT / government to move any faster on this.

...From what I have been informed, it could be a good 3 years yet unless something drastic happens. Really, really hope I am wrong on this as obviously l would benefit hugely from an earlier rather than later adoption.

As regards the MonVal Electra and the police, lets just say for now, that there has been some interst in it as a 'high visibility station based patrol vehicle'. The parties who have expressed an interest, like the fact that it has two batteries on the front to guarentee range and the fact that it can accomodate officers of various heights and girths within a single frame. They also see it as a good cost cutting measure because for the price of a patrol car, they could get theoretically 3/4 bikes and have 3/4 more officers on patrol because of the attributes I just mentioned.

This is partly why I know so much about plod... errrr I mean the police - and their growing interest in E-bikes.

 

[flecc]

As regards the MonVal Electra and the police, lets just say for now, that there has been some interst in it as a 'high visibility station based patrol vehicle'.

I hope this happens for you before too long. The best hope for more speed on clearing up the EAPC mess is indeed the Royal Mail, but at present getting e-bikes is the least of their worries.

Meanwhile I believe as I've posted just before you and have no personal worries about ignoring the EAPC regulations.
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[MonVal Electra]

I know the DfT say this, but it seems it only arises from one civil servant's opinion when he used to look after e-bike matters. I firmly believe he and the DfT are wrong:

1) The EU directive was mandatory and we complied with the order to implement it within six months, doing that to the day. The UK cannot avoid compliance.

2) Therefore any action under our prior EAPC regulations which conflicted can be appealed and overruled by Europe. This is especially important since a high proportion of e-bikes in the UK have been sold since 1993 as 250 Watts, permitted by the EU regs but not the EAPC ones.

3) Any EU citizen is entitled by law to any EU benefit enjoyed by any other EU citizen. Clearly the use of e-bikes under EU law is one such benefit.
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Flecc - You are singing to the choir here

I totally agree with what you have stated. Unfortunately as mentioned before, I have to go with what the UK rules currently say, in order for me to offer and sell my product.

I am too small a business to take on the might of the British Establishment in challenging this, but maybe if some brave souls want to take up the mantle???...

 

[flecc]

I have to go with what the UK rules currently say, in order for me to offer and sell my product.

Of course, I was stating my personal position, but in commerce you have no option but to comply with any and all regulations seemingly applicable.
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[allotmenteer]

My bike (bafang motor, 36V nimh, 15A controller) can provide good assistance to about 24mph with me pedalling. I can average just over 20mph when I commute the 15 miles to work.

A max speed of 25mph is about as fast as I would want to go. To get more speed I would have to add larger / more batteries to the bike which would make the bike heavier and put more strain on the frame, and also affect the handling. The heavier bike would need better brakes and so on. It would soon stop being a bike and become a motor vehicle. I wouldn't feel safe riding it. I agree the 15 mph limit is a bit low but there comes a point when adding more speed to an electric bike hits the law of diminishing returns.

If you want more speed then I really would suggest a scooter (an electric one if possible). Then ride a normal bike in your spare time for fitness.

 

[MonVal Electra]

A max speed of 25mph is about as fast as I would want to go. To get more speed I would have to add larger / more batteries to the bike which would make the bike heavier and put more strain on the frame, and also affect the handling. The heavier bike would need better brakes and so on. It would soon stop being a bike and become a motor vehicle. I wouldn't feel safe riding it. I agree the 15 mph limit is a bit low but there comes a point when adding more speed to an electric bike hits the law of diminishing returns.

Hello allotmenteer

You have no idea how true your words are!!!!

Believe it or not, they've just launched an electric motorbike similar to what you have just described where YOU pedal.

It's called the 'eROCKIT' and you can see it here on this link: eROCKIT | A new vehicle category: The Human-Machine-Hybrid

Those of you who read Velovision or regularly visit their site, will already be aware of this machine.

 

[Mussels]

Hello allotmenteer

You have no idea how true your words are!!!!

Believe it or not, they've just launched an electric motorbike similar to what you have just described where YOU pedal.

It's called the 'eROCKIT' and you can see it here on this link: eROCKIT | A new vehicle category: The Human-Machine-Hybrid

Those of you who read Velovision or regularly visit their site, will already be aware of this machine.

Love it, shame the price makes Optibike look like like bargain basement stuff.

 

[Alex728]

where I currently live most utility cyclists are going at 10-14mph.

I have not seen many drop handlebar bikes going fast, other than what appear to be middle aged and retired people training for races etc..

I do remember a few more more "faster" utility cyclists in Reading, but I got the impression many of them were actually quite agressive (rather than assertive) - saw one actually order a young lady (on a shared use path) to get out of his way rather than slow down..

he was too quick for me to catch up with him unfortunately (maybe just as well) I actually wanted to report him to the plod - that is the only time I've felt so angry I wanted to "grass" on someone.. this wasn't a young chap either, he was easily in his 40s...

however where I live now I once had a old man tell me "mind how you go boy" (in the local accent) because he felt I was walking too fast, and a popular car sticker says "Don't rush me, I'm from Suffolk"

People here are prepared to accept a slower pace of life which isn't a bad thing IMO..

also I do suspect some "fast" cyclists apply the same leeway to their speeds as anglers do to the size of fish they have caught

With regard to plating etc the Powacycle Salisbury has a voltage/wattage plate (26V/200W) also marked "Zheijang Fujiyang Bicycle Company" (a place just SW of Shanghai)

Given that Powacycle's parent company is a major supplier of IT solutions to the education, legal and public sector market I can understand why they wish to play safe with regulations..

That said in the present climate I doubt if what is a very gentlemanly bunch of people getting a few extra MPH out of their e-bikes will attract much attention from the local constabulary, unless they start riding in a dangerous or anti social manner (which is equally illegal on a unpowered cycle anyway)

My experience in my youth of "bending the rules" in this country is that there is a actually surprising amount of leeway until things start going pearshaped for wider society, then there is a knee jerk reaction and the authorities tend to step in and increase the burden of regulations/enforcement...

Af course if things change in maybe 5-10 years time and modified e-bikes start posing an actual road safety hazard the situation could get worse for DIY'ers. Wasn't one restriction on motor power in either China or Japan due to concern over illegal mods and an actual rise in accidents involving e-bikes?

 

[Barnowl]

also I do suspect some "fast" cyclists apply the same leeway to their speeds as anglers do to the size of fish they have caught

QUOTE]

I've suspected the same thing myself.

 

[eddieo]

Hello allotmenteer

You have no idea how true your words are!!!!

Believe it or not, they've just launched an electric motorbike similar to what you have just described where YOU pedal.

It's called the 'eROCKIT' and you can see it here on this link: eROCKIT | A new vehicle category: The Human-Machine-Hybrid

Those of you who read Velovision or regularly visit their site, will already be aware of this machine.

OMG!!!1 I am in love!!!.......





How much & how heavy.......... pray tell


OK just found it $44,000 bloody crazy

 

[Barnowl]

OMG!!!1 I am in love!!!.......





How much & how heavy.......... pray tell


OK just found it $44,000 bloody crazy

Yeah but 50MPH.

No that's bloody crazy as well!

Looks somehow less impressive when someones sat in the saddle and you know it costs that much:

the ErockIT – 50 mph pedal electric hybrid motorcycle

 

[Danny-K]

Hello allotmenteer

. . . It's called the 'eROCKIT' and you can see it here on this link: eROCKIT | A new vehicle category: The Human-Machine-Hybrid

Loved this benefit-point on the website -
". . . to the rear and front brakes, whose handles are positioned in natural locations on the right and left handlebars . . ."

Wow! There's a novelty.

- I think I'll do likewise and move my brake levers from the beneath my saddle to the above recommendation.


Or have I misunderstood and they're promoting right hand for rear braking and left hand for front braking rather than how it reads to me as: promoting the the placing of brake levers on the handlebars?

Liked it though, the eROCKET.

 

[Barnowl]

But £25K and only 50MPH tops and you have to put some effort in to get there.

 

[Caph]

My bike (bafang motor, 36V nimh, 15A controller) can provide good assistance to about 24mph with me pedalling.

Allotmenteer, just a word of caution, the authorities can get your name and address from your IP address by consulting your ISP. Of course your commute to work is entirely off-road so it's not a problem.