When 15 mph isn't enough

[jakers]

Thanks everyone for your responses.
I'm afraid I only saw them all now (was more used to forums that default to reply email notification automatically)
Taking your comments in no particular order:
I do not agree with the commute speeds quoted of 12 and 13 mph. When I was a young cyclist, about 15 years old, I remember one of the big benchmarks in my cycling club was to complete 100 miles in 6 hours. That's a 16.6mph average. The route that this was done on involved setting off from the Wirral and circuiting the various hills of north wales including the Horseshoe Pass above llangollen, so a hilly route. I don't recall ever achieving it as a 15 year old but many other slightly older club level cyclists did. bear in mind that this was an average speed so involved a couple of stops to carbo load on energy bars etc.
At the same age, I used to do a 7 mile commute into school in heavy traffic most of the way which was predominantly slightly uphill with a rucksack full of school books which when I was cycling well took me just under 18 minutes (which If i recall is 23mph ish average) though there were often double decker busses going the same way at circa 25-30 mph that I was able to slipstream. This was when I was a child, by the legal definition. Despite this, I agree with the poster who suggested lite regulations for a faster class of e-bike, such as over 18s only and compulsory insurance and helmet.
I don't want a moped. I have a CBR 600 (a motorbike) if I want to go quickly. The problem is my commute to work is cut in half if I do it by cycle thanks to a handy offroad cycle route for a large part of it. Even on my motorbike there are large bits of it where I can't get through the traffic so I have to sit there fuming stationary with all the cars. I also want to start to do my bit for the environment so an e-bike is highly appealing in this respect.

I agree with the statement that a few people responsibly and quietly pushing the boundaries of the law shouldn't arouse too much interest and mean those that do can get away with it for longer, and take note of the lack of legal clarity on the situation of motor labelling in the uk versus EU laws. I think it would irresponsible and maybe illegal for me as a journalist to publish any kind of exposee on how to circumvent the UK laws and soup up an e-bike to be more useful, though the matter that the UK laws are hamstringing the uptake of these environmentally crucial vehicles is a story that I think needs to be told.
Can anybody confirm whether the Bionx motors have their power output marked on them and whether there is a UK importer for these motors?

 

[jakers]

Allotmenteer, just a word of caution, the authorities can get your name and address from your IP address by consulting your ISP. Of course your commute to work is entirely off-road so it's not a problem.

Caph,
Please be aware that ISPs have to adhere to the Data Protection Act. Your name and address is sensitive personal data. For the law enforcement authorities to go to the masive efforts it would require to circumvent this, they would have to suspect a very serious crime. I think they have been able to do it in the past when they have suspected child abuse or terrorism, that sort of thing, but not somebody using a slightly souped up cycle motor.
There are websites out there where disgruntled motorists boast about burning and chopping down speed cameras, if it was easy for the police to get names and addresses out of ISPs they would start with these kind of sites long before they get round to the pedelec forum!

 

[flecc]

I do not agree with the commute speeds quoted of 12 and 13 mph. When I was a young cyclist, about 15 years old, I remember one of the big benchmarks in my cycling club was to complete 100 miles in 6 hours. That's a 16.6mph average.

But that was club riders though, and I presume drop handlebars. Sit upright cyclists are slower for obvious reasons and e-bikes are uprights, and the 12 and 13 mph I mentioned was for general utility riding, not commuting which is usually a bit faster though definitely not at 20 mph on upright bikes. These laws in most countries from here to Japan have been based on general utility cycling, not sport cycling, and the large growth in cycle commuting here now is very recent, the laws made long before.

Can anybody confirm whether the Bionx motors have their power output marked on them and whether there is a UK importer for these motors?

There is no UK importer for BionX. Some have looked into it but nothing has transpired to date, despite there being an EU legal 250 Watt version as well as the 350 Watt original. That may be because of the prices, the Lithium batteries especially being very expensive.

I don't remember any labelling, but they could be now.
.

 

[Alex728]

There are websites out there where disgruntled motorists boast about burning and chopping down speed cameras, if it was easy for the police to get names and addresses out of ISPs they would start with these kind of sites long before they get round to the pedelec forum!

Indeed - there is still a lot of "free speech" in this nation plus sociopathic people with mental health issues do often brag about crimes they haven't committed to try and "look hard" - the cops know this..

Over the last 15 years (yes I was a early adopter of the net) I have been part of newsgroups/forums where people discuss far more controversial issues and actions than modified electric bicycles - recreational drug use, unlicensed raves, political activism etc....

My experience is that cops very rarely get involved to the extent of demanding personal details (as jakers says this is in extreme cases) but they certainly do monitor the forums for intelligence purposes (often enough personal info can be gleaned from searching a forum members post)

I am aware of people being arrested due to bragging about their past crimes online but this is usually due to the crimes being high value theft/fraud, or violence/harrasment which is fair enough really.

There is of course also no real proof (even with photos) that someones "illegal" bike was actually being ridden on the public highway with its motor activated.. a rider could always claim it was being wheeled or pedalled as its high power motor had been used off road and run down the battery

I suspect that unless someone on here builds a modified ebike, is involved in a serious RTC and then tries to evade justice the cops are unlikely to make a fuss.

However, whilst I don't want people to reach for the tinfoil to cover their bonce or line their cycling helmets, its worth considering its quite possible there are already one of more serving Police officers on this forum!

Every cycling forum I have been on has had at least one cop lurking it not actually posting. Often there is no sinister intention at all, its simply that they are one of those "new style bobbies on bicycles" and enjoy cycling (they get some pretty decent bikes too!) - but of course if they see something a bit "illegal" they may feel duty bound to "do something about it.." - though I think they would be more likely to target the importers of "high power" motor kits than individual constructors..

 

[Alex728]

I do not agree with the commute speeds quoted of 12 and 13 mph. When I was a young cyclist, about 15 years old, I remember one of the big benchmarks in my cycling club was to complete 100 miles in 6 hours. That's a 16.6mph average.

ah, but you weren't the average 15 year old lad, but a very fit young athlete who loved bikes and happened to cycle to school as well -

Maybe I would have done the same in the mid-late 1980s had things gone differently ; but when I was 15 my dad unfortunately thought bicycles were dangerous and a distraction from my studies, the high school I attended was discouraging people from cycling - also there was a strong pro-helmet lobby in Reading which actually ended up scaring and putting the kids (and parents) off bikes!

so instead I spent my spare time smoking (ironically often in the same now abandoned bike sheds), drinking and partying instead and getting into acid house music...

if you talk to a teenager today if he or she does cycle they will often have a MTB with wholly unsuitable tyres, and because of this be going around at a much slower speed,

Anyway it was only in 2001 I got back into cycling (having always enjoyed it as a small boy). I have owned or own MTB's, a tourer with drop handlebars and a hybrid - and yes the tourer was fastest, but it still required a fair bit of effort to get to the 20 mph plus I personally felt that it was sacrificing safety for speed at that level.

I like going fast too - but find (despite always making sure I have good brakes) speed gives me less time to react to the random badger / cat / rabbit that runs out in front of you - in town its the emo dressed in dark clothes wandering out of the off license - or a grinning Rastafarian with a splendid green tam (the hat) carrying a bundle of letters to the post box!

TBH on my riding especially with the stop start traffic in the urban area, I find that for a short commuting journey there isn't that much difference between 13, 15 or 18 mph to my ultimate journey time. About 5-10 minutes at most. if that short time is so important maybe a motorbike or even a car is a better idea....

I found (through comparing data from a GPS linked to a computer) having an ebike might make me "slower" on the flat but its quicker on uphill stretches, and my total journey time has decreased by 10 minutes - and this is on the modest powered Powacycle Salisbury!

I do feel inconsistencies in the law should be highlighted (especially the 200/250W max motor power discrepancy) but TBH I don't think speed is putting people off buying e-bikes. For one thing it seems the suppliers and importers have much more demand than they have stock, their lean staffing teams are overstretched with work (indicating a large existing and new customer base) and if anything is putting people off its concerns over customer service and delays to orders or repairs rather than "max power"..

 

[flecc]

Every cycling forum I have been on has had at least one cop lurking it not actually posting.

We do have at least one "Ex", and they often maintain contacts within the force after retirement, but my mentions of 43 mph downhill through a restricted zone has not brought arrest (yet).
.

 

[siggah5]

Hi Flecc

I think the police on the forum (or the polis as wee get called here in sunny scotland) are a wee bit more common than you think.From experience some police officers do not agree with the 15 mph limit.Most cyclists do not like cars wizzing past them even at 30 mph.I would therefore suggest twenty's plenty.(even up hill)

regards to all
andy

p.s my english is terrible!

 

[Caph]

Caph,
Please be aware that ISPs have to adhere to the Data Protection Act. Your name and address is sensitive personal data. For the law enforcement authorities to go to the masive efforts it would require to circumvent this, they would have to suspect a very serious crime. I think they have been able to do it in the past when they have suspected child abuse or terrorism, that sort of thing, but not somebody using a slightly souped up cycle motor.
There are websites out there where disgruntled motorists boast about burning and chopping down speed cameras, if it was easy for the police to get names and addresses out of ISPs they would start with these kind of sites long before they get round to the pedelec forum!

I didn't mean to cause offense. I was basing what I said on the numerous postings on Cable Forum that I've been following with interest. I wish it was as difficult as you think to get my personal details from my ISP from IP address and time I was logged on but unfortunately this isn't the case.

I've been following a civil matter (not a criminal matter) where a German software company logged IP addresses and logged on times of people downloading/uploading torrents of their software then instructed a UK solicitors firm to find out the names and address of these people from the relevant ISPs then send out issues of proceedings with a get out if they pay several hundred pounds damages. The worrying thing is Virgin complied (I don't know about other ISPs) and it seems lots of people got the letter.

The outcome seems to have been mixed. Some people have settled while other have been successfully taken to court and found guilty and ordered to pay even higher damages although I believe the case of this happening was due to a no show in court.

Anyway, it got me thinking, if it's that easy for a private company to get your details then it's got to be even easier for the police to get details of people who admit to criminal activity online.

Like I say, I'm not out to make any point. It was just a word of caution. Personally I don't think anything will be done but my thinking is why tempt fate.

 

[Caph]

I personally felt that it was sacrificing safety for speed at that level.

I know what you mean, I experience most of my problems/near misses going down a third of a mile steep downhill stretch at 30mph. When I'm cycling at around 10mph I rarely experience problems.

Conversely, I find merging with traffic tricky at slower speeds, so a right turn becomes problematic in heavy flast flowing traffic sometimes resulting in me stopping on the left side of the road waiting for a gap.

Sometimes cyclists can't win!

 

[Mussels]

I see many commuters in central London and at a flat speed of about 18mph I am faster than most. There are people who go faster and yesterday one guy was doing almost 30mph, that is very much the exception though and almost all of the fast riders are obviously experienced and probably club riders.
I just don't see this great speed that cyclists are meant to be doing.

 

[Alex728]

I've been following a civil matter (not a criminal matter) where a German software company logged IP addresses and logged on times of people downloading/uploading torrents of their software then instructed a UK solicitors firm to find out the names and address of these people from the relevant ISPs then send out issues of proceedings with a get out if they pay several hundred pounds damages. The worrying thing is Virgin complied (I don't know about other ISPs) and it seems lots of people got the letter.

in this case though there are two bigger factors - one being a large corporate has taken action because they have obtained evidence that their property with a cash value of many thousands of euros has been stolen by this illegal activity...

the second is that there is a commercial incentive for a ISP to frighten heavy users of torrents as they are perceived to hog a lot of expensive bandwidth, in the short term (which is all corporates look at) it makes more business sense for a company like NTL/virgin (still bogged down with debt) to lose these difficult customers rather than invest in more expensive infrastructure during a recession..

Unless people start building e-bikes with built in embedded computers and wi-fi bittorrent clients (and i wouldn't put it past the Japanese, or even some of the DIY'ers on here) this isn't going to be an issue for ISPs

Like I say, I'm not out to make any point. It was just a word of caution. Personally I don't think anything will be done but my thinking is why tempt fate.

that said, I do agree with this point.

I think that e-biking has moved away from its "Sinclair c5 or mobility vehicle" image and is on the verge of going more mainstream - at present I would say it now has a very gentlemanly if slightly eccentric image (in no small way thanks to this forum )

But the tabloids and complainers are already getting concerned over "dangerous cyclists" on unpowered bikes, and any publicity creating paranoia over "illegal ebikes" is only going to stir the pot. Moral panics are sadly easy to start in this nation..

 

[Neil]

Lots of illegal bikes

Just test the bikes at the Presteigne one-hour endurance tour. Does this not show even the industry knows that the 15mph limit is rubbish.

 

[siggah5]

definately
yup!

 

[siggah5]

noggin

Hi All

Farse comes to mind!

 

[flecc]

15 mph it is, and 15 mph is where it will stay. Across the board for all types of cycling, that's the most that the average speed is.

It's EAPC = Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles. Now think logically in legal terms.

Think of the definition of EAPC. It's not the pedal cycle that needs assistance, it's an object that has no needs.

The assistance is for the rider. So who do we give assistance to? Not to those who don't need assistance of course, but to those who need it.

If they need assistance, what does that tell us? It tells us that they are below the norm in average cycling ability, for there's the norm who can and do cycle without power assist. Above the norm are those of extra ability who can race around at 20 mph on drop handlebar bikes, and below the norm are our subjects who struggle at times and need extra help.

So now we set the speed limit to keep the e-bikes as close to normal bikes as possible, and to do that we choose the most speed that our intended users would usually manage, and that's at best 15 mph on average.

Got it? The legislation is for those who need assistance. It's not for those who don't and it's not to create low powered motor vehicles.
.

 

[rog_london]

That's a most succinct explanation, Flecc. After all, if you want to go significantly faster than that, you just pass your test and either drive a tin can or get a motorbike or scooter.

I've been a motorbike rider for all of my adult life - had a full licence since they were hand-written on vellum with a big red seal at the bottom. You too, Flecc, I know! I'm still a motorbike rider, but I've always wanted an e-bike once the technology got to be somewhere near mature, and that's what I've done.

Speed isn't what it's about for me - it's about being able to make decent progress as a cyclist, have lots of fun doing it, and perhaps just as importantly, get some exercise. It's a very seductive means of transport - as I'd suspected, you actually find you want to work at it, and just twisting the throttle and not bothering to pedal doesn't come into it. I'm not put off by the local hills through being unfit, because the bike will give me as much help as I may need, so I can have a hoot and also do myself some good.

It's so different to unpowered cycling, but I can see they may well compliment one another. There has been some mention in here of ebike riders getting fit enough to return to an unpowered bike, which they would probably never have done any other way.

Rog.

 

[The Maestro]

I agree with the poster who suggested lite regulations for a faster class of e-bike, such as over 18s only and compulsory insurance and helmet.

I said that apart from the bit about the helmet! Maybe for under 18s but I think the state telling grown adults what to do for their own personal safety is pathetic! Same goes for motorcycle helmets, seatbelts and drugs. Anyway thats all another topic!

But yes, I think that an ebike that will assist up to 25-30 mph is still a bike and not a moped, a moped is significantly higher powered. Personally I'd be fairly happy with a maximum power output similar to today's legal ebikes but allowing that assistace to be spread from 0-25mph. This would present a challenge to bike builders to deliver hill climbing ability (low gearing) and higher speed gearing in the same design but is very do-able.

To me this is far more in the spirit of a bicycle and cycling than one with an abitrary cut-off at 15mph since thats pretty much pootling along with no effort on the flat to an average person.

 

[Fecn]

The assistance is for the rider. So who do we give assistance to? Not to those who don't need assistance of course, but to those who need it.

If they need assistance, what does that tell us? It tells us that they are below the norm in average cycling ability, for there's the norm who can and do cycle without power assist. Above the norm are those of extra ability who can race around at 20 mph on drop handlebar bikes, and below the norm are our subjects who struggle at times and need extra help.

You make e-bikes sound like one of those walking frames for the very frail. I bought an e-bike not because I am unable to do without power assist, but because it makes the whole things easier, quicker and more fun.

I do woodworking as a hobby and that involves drilling holes... In my mind, the e-bike argument goes something like this...

Here's the way we used to do it when I was at school

.. and here's the modern way...

I do not consider the fact that I use a LiIon powered cordless drill to in any way indicate that I need assistance when drilling holes, and I feel the same way about my e-bike too.

My other point to add to this thread was that even though the electrical assistance on EAPCs is required to stop at 15mph, there's no speed limit for the bike itself. If you want to go faster than 15mph there is nothing to stop you... just pump those pedals.

 

[The Maestro]

15 mph it is, and 15 mph is where it will stay. Across the board for all types of cycling, that's the most that the average speed is.

It's EAPC = Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles. Now think logically in legal terms.

Think of the definition of EAPC. It's not the pedal cycle that needs assistance, it's an object that has no needs.

The assistance is for the rider. So who do we give assistance to? Not to those who don't need assistance of course, but to those who need it.

If they need assistance, what does that tell us? It tells us that they are below the norm in average cycling ability, for there's the norm who can and do cycle without power assist. Above the norm are those of extra ability who can race around at 20 mph on drop handlebar bikes, and below the norm are our subjects who struggle at times and need extra help.

So now we set the speed limit to keep the e-bikes as close to normal bikes as possible, and to do that we choose the most speed that our intended users would usually manage, and that's at best 15 mph on average.

Got it? The legislation is for those who need assistance. It's not for those who don't and it's not to create low powered motor vehicles.
.

This is perfectly clear and well put, but I think this all hinges on the question of (forgetting the law) SHOULD e-bikes only be for people who are below the norm?

Personally I say no.

Another argument is that imo the bicycle shoud be there to provide a cheap way for the masses and especially the poor to have cheap A-B transport without paying tax and incurring loads of charges related to relgulations. This has been the place of the cycle for decades, but now unfortunately they are becoming more and more just a leisure vehicle. This is because they haven't moved with the times - people are working further and further from where they live and most journeys are getting longer.

Time to update the bicycle, not just make a bike for our obese and aging population to crawl around on.

 

[nigel]

Well today i found a nice short steep hill and topped 31mph and loved it but i guess i might be one of the weird ones Nigel.