When 15 mph isn't enough

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,308
30,673
There are other reasons for people to ride assisted bikes, other than below average cycling ability.

I use my Agattu so that I don't get to work hot and sweaty. I wouldn't classify myself as having below average cycling ability, and I can actually do my commuting trip quicker on my non-assisted Marin but when I do it takes me at least an hour before I stop 'glowing'. :eek:
That's the same thing Carrigada. In order to cycle to work in a civilised (i.e. utility cycling) manner you physically need assistance, since you don't have the physical ability to do it without undue sweating etc.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,308
30,673
The other picture was of a Cyclemaster - a complete engine, small fuel tank, and everything else needed built into the rear wheel of an otherwise standard steel-framed roadster.

I can't remember the engine size - something like 25cc two stroke.
Yes, that was the 25 cc model, the black painted hub identifying that. It lacked hill climb power so was upgraded to 32 cc, distinguished by a grey painted hub.

This was originally a DKW design, but produced by the Dutch following WW2.
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,308
30,673
For single vehicle type approval of a high speed e-bike that you've created, us the link below for details and test centres. The inspection for approval costs £200, a repeat test following failure, £45:

Single Vehicle Type Approval
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The Maestro

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2008
296
0
So what do you need exactly I'm confused?

Type approval
Insurance
Motorcycle type helmet
Number plate
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MOT ?
TAX disc (even if free) ?
Fixed lights ?
Fixed speedometer ?
CBT ?
Provisional motorcycle license (at least )?
Licence withdrawn if not passed full motorcycle test in 2 years ?
L-Plates ?

Anything else ?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,308
30,673
So what do you need exactly I'm confused?

Type approval
Insurance
Motorcycle type helmet
Number plate
---
MOT ?
TAX disc (even if free) ?
Fixed lights ?
Fixed speedometer ?
CBT ?
Provisional motorcycle license (at least )?
Licence withdrawn if not passed full motorcycle test in 2 years ?
L-Plates ?
Much of that yes. Those who've held car driving licences before (I think) 2002 don't have to pass a test to ride the moped class, and that covers a huge proportion of e-bike riders, given the older age slant of users. They won't have to bother with L plates, CBT etc, nor will the many who already have a motorcycle licence.

Speedo and lights aren't a problem, many e-bikes having them already.

MOT from 3 years bike age on, but these are virtually nod through, just a few minutes of cursory checking by a motorcycle mechanic. Things like the riding test and CBT will be similarly nod through events, since testers and testing facilities aren't equipped to do those for e-bikes, and they are once only in a lifetime events, no big deal.

The main differences from when we had the add-on petrol motors are that there were no consumer motorcycle crash helmets then, so no legislation, and no MOTs.

All this illustrates what has been said already, it's best to carry on as we are, meaning we can quietly enjoy some higher speeds without drawing attention to ourselves and without campaigning for changes in the law which we can never get anyway.

Those who stubbornly won't accept that and demand official higher performance have the way out the authorities have provided, type approval etc, accepting all that entails.

The only worthwhile campaign would be to get the Swiss style high speed class that Germany enjoys and which we are entitled to in EU law. That means pedelec cycling to 20 mph with insurance and cycle helmets, and I think there may be some other small requirements. However, even that will have the undesirable effect of drawing attention to some e-bikers wanting higher speeds, attracting unwanted official attention.
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The Maestro

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2008
296
0
Much of that yes. Those who've held car driving licences before (I think) 2002 don't have to pass a test to ride the moped class, and that covers a huge proportion of e-bike riders, given the older age slant of users. They won't have to bother with L plates, CBT etc, nor will the many who already have a motorcycle licence.

Speedo and lights aren't a problem, many e-bikes having them already.

MOT from 3 years bike age on, but these are virtually nod through, just a few minutes of cursory checking by a motorcycle mechanic. Things like the riding test and CBT will be similarly nod through events, since testers and testing facilities aren't equipped to do those for e-bikes, and they are once only in a lifetime events, no big deal.

The main differences from when we had the add-on petrol motors are that there were no consumer motorcycle crash helmets then, so no legislation, and no MOTs.

All this illustrates what has been said already, it's best to carry on as we are, meaning we can quietly enjoy some higher speeds without drawing attention to ourselves and without campaigning for changes in the law which we can never get anyway.

Those who stubbornly won't accept that and demand official higher performance have the way out the authorities have provided, type approval etc, accepting all that entails.

The only worthwhile campaign would be to get the Swiss style high speed class that Germany enjoys and which we are entitled to in EU law. That means pedelec cycling to 20 mph with insurance and cycle helmets, and I think there may be some other small requirements. However, even that will have the undesirable effect of drawing attention to some e-bikers wanting higher speeds, attracting unwanted official attention.
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I totally agree with you that its pointless but I'm just coming from my (probably opinionated) point of view of what I think would be a good thing. I do think the German position with the 20 mph ebikes would be a decent result, although I'd personally not want to wear a toast-rack on my head :) Anyway thanks for all the information as always :)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,308
30,673
although I'd personally not want to wear a toast-rack on my head :)
We're kindred spirits in this, I'd hate to be forced to wear them. When I first got into cycling and motorcycling there weren't any helmets anyway. Today's health and safety brigade would have been horrified. :D
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Caph

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 29, 2008
440
11
Nottingham, UK
That's the same thing Carrigada. In order to cycle to work in a civilised (i.e. utility cycling) manner you physically need assistance, since you don't have the physical ability to do it without undue sweating etc.
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I'd have to go with Carrigada on this one. I play 5-a-side once a week and go running at the weekends. I am quite capable of doing 50 mile off road bike rides in one day but I wouldn't be cycling to work if I didn't have my electric bike, especially in summer because I'd get too sweaty. I defy anyone to get to work and not be sweaty in summer wearing full work gear and a waterproof when it's raining. The third of a mile steep hill near my work doesn't help either!
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,308
30,673
I'd have to go with Carrigada on this one. I play 5-a-side once a week and go running at the weekends. I am quite capable of doing 50 mile off road bike rides in one day but I wouldn't be cycling to work if I didn't have my electric bike, especially in summer because I'd get too sweaty. I defy anyone to get to work and not be sweaty in summer wearing full work gear and a waterproof when it's raining. The third of a mile steep hill near my work doesn't help either!
Of course, as with those who want to travel faster, there will be numerous reasons for wanting e-power, but legislators don't spend endless hours dreaming up such possibilities, it's beyond their remit. They legislated for electric assist for those who they perceived needed it.

In doing so they consult interested parties, and as this was when e-bikes barely existed, that would be the CTC, Police, Road Transport Research Laboratory and ROSPA typically.

Do you see anyone there sympathetic to the ideas of what e-bikers might want? Hardly, they'd be safety biased in general, with the CTC in those early days somewhat hostile to the idea of motorised bikes anyway.

Once a law is set, it's a devil of a job to change it, and with a tiny lobby like ours there's no chance.
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Alex728

Esteemed Pedelecer
Dec 16, 2008
1,109
-1
Ipswich
incidentally in 2005 Singapore passed swingeing restrictions on both lower powered petrol bikes (banning them outright) and ebikes - formally reducing their power to 200W rather than 250W or more - following just 16 minor accidents involving these vehicles...

despite the cultural stereotypes of this country they have a laissez-faire approach to business and initially seemed to give ebikes and powered bikes a lot of legal leeway compared to other Far Eastern nations..

On a more positive note I think the quirky Monval Electra bike (provided its robust and stable) could be a winner for the posties and cops...

It fits perfectly into that market niche, (posties already ride some odd looking and distinctive bikes) can be sold at a premium price (like Pashley unpowered bikes), and its looks mean its harder for civillians to nick the machines.

my only caveat would be to keep a close eye on industrial relations etc if pitching it to the Royal Mail or any other similar public body.

In the late 70s/early 80s a company tried to get the Post Office/British Telecom to use electric vans - but there was resistance (no pun intended!) from the engineers (who were already annoyed with management over a variety of issues)

a retired enginer "confessed" on his website that some deliberately sabotaged the vans by deep discharging the (lead acid) cells beyond their safe points, as they were angry they couldn't use the vans for moonlighting (I think they needed 16A charging points which were hard to find in normal houses unless you rewire the cooker feed) - and they clearly wanted this "management imposed" initiative to fail

but I suppose these chaps knew exactly what not do to lead acid batteries as many were (and still are) used in telecoms... and with todays electronics it would be easy to monitor and store charge/discharge patterns (even a old laptop I put Xubuntu on does this!)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,308
30,673
Some Chinese cities have banned e-bikes too, as well as restricting cycling, favouring the rapidly developing use of cars. Possibly an image issue as much as anything, self conciousness of a developing nation?

There's a widespread view that the Royal Mail will, choose the Heinzmann powered German postbike for their intended purchase of 14,000 e-bikes, already very fully equipped and thoroughly tested by time so ideal for the job. Looks like a long way to go yet to sort the law out though, so the whole proposal could fall through and plans change.
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There's a widespread view that the Royal Mail will, choose the Heinzmann powered German postbike for their intended purchase of 14,000 e-bikes, already very fully equipped and thoroughly tested by time so ideal for the job. Looks like a long way to go yet to sort the law out though, so the whole proposal could fall through and plans change.
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Hello Flecc - your right they would have done but for the problems of weight and range as I understand it.

Please correct me anyone if I have got the story wrong but this is how I understand things went down at the time, about 2 1/2 to 3 years ago:

First off, the basic bike they were looking at then, was/is too heavy by UK EAPC regulations ( over 40kg for those who don't know).

Secondly, when they tried them with NiMH batteries, carrying all that weight, plus 40kgs of load, the range they wanted to achieve, fell a little short. So ideally they needed to have two NiMH batteries. The problem though, was there was no where to stick the second full sized battery without compromising carrying capacity. At the time, they wanted to be able to use rear side panniers as well. But, even if they could have found somewhere to stick it, it would have made the basic bike even heavier.
When they tried with Lithium batteries, (remember at that time, they weren't very good), that was a complete disaster - because as you know, Lithium batteries do not like prolonged heavy discharge as this chemically exhausts the cells. They barely got the thing to move off when it was fully loaded and every time they came to a hill, it was 'game over'

For those who don't know what one looks like, please see attached image of a German Post bike minus electric kit.

Then see this link of one with a battery being tested, and yes I know in the picture it looks like a Heinzmann lithium pack :- Battery Test with Deutsche Post AG - ExtraEnergy.org
 

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On a more positive note I think the quirky Monval Electra bike (provided its robust and stable) could be a winner for the posties and cops...

It fits perfectly into that market niche, (posties already ride some odd looking and distinctive bikes) can be sold at a premium price (like Pashley unpowered bikes), and its looks mean its harder for civillians to nick the machines.
Very well observed Alex728 :cool:

The MonVal Electra is indeed robust and sturdy as it is made out of wide section tubing which makes it stiffer than the tube sizes regularly used in conventional bicycle industry manufacture, and it utilises T45 steel which is used in the aero industries as well as in the construction of roll cages. This material is much stronger than the bike industry standard Cro Moly steel. :)


my only caveat would be to keep a close eye on industrial relations etc if pitching it to the Royal Mail or any other similar public body.

In the late 70s/early 80s a company tried to get the Post Office/British Telecom to use electric vans - but there was resistance (no pun intended!) from the engineers (who were already annoyed with management over a variety of issues)

a retired enginer "confessed" on his website that some deliberately sabotaged the vans by deep discharging the (lead acid) cells beyond their safe points, as they were angry they couldn't use the vans for moonlighting (I think they needed 16A charging points which were hard to find in normal houses unless you rewire the cooker feed) - and they clearly wanted this "management imposed" initiative to fail

but I suppose these chaps knew exactly what not do to lead acid batteries as many were (and still are) used in telecoms... and with todays electronics it would be easy to monitor and store charge/discharge patterns (even a old laptop I put Xubuntu on does this!)
I'll let you in on a little secret Alex :D , I worked for BT for nearly 20 years, so know well of what you speak :)
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,308
30,673
Hello Flecc - your right they would have done but for the problems of weight and range as I understand it.
That doesn't surprise me, since I was a little cynical about any e-bike matching fully up to their needs and was quite prepared to hear that the whole idea was being dropped. I think that's even more likely now, given the long delay before the law on e-bikes is to be tidied up, since the Royal Mail is still in a turmoil and likely to be the subject of further political alterations which could change their whole future.

I don't think e-bikes are highly developed enough yet for sustained fleet use, the battery problems you mention being a good example of that. From past experience there's a world of difference between fleet use in many hands and owner usage and the fleet attempt could end up as an extremely costly disaster.
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I don't think e-bikes are highly developed enough yet for sustained fleet use, the battery problems you mention being a good example of that. From past experience there's a world of difference between fleet use in many hands and owner usage and the fleet attempt could end up as an extremely costly disaster.
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If you are talking about using the current crop of E-bikes in an industrial fleet setting, then yes I agree - but to be fare to them, they are designed first and foremost for personal transport whereas my machine is designed for PERSONNEL transport, which like you say is a world of difference.

Where you say that 'E-bikes are not highly developed enough yet for sustained fleet use', that is not so clear cut. Because, there are successful examples of this, such as: the Deutsh post electric mail bikes (Heinzmann powered)and the mail bikes used by the Japenese post office (panasonic powered). Granted, the fact that these machines are succesfull, is because they have been specifically designed for that environment.

Like yourself Flecc, I have first hand knowledge of how badly vehicles get abused when in a fleet environment. More relevantly to this discussion, the abuse of bicycles in said same environment through my work /dealings with the 'Not for profit' organisation Cyclemagic ( http://www.cyclemagic.org.uk/), who are regularly called upon to provide vehicles for events, shows and demos etc.

From the research that has been extensively carried out, I believe that the MonVal Electra is the first purpose designed E-bike for heavy utility and general commercial usage. Or if you like, it is an E-bike equivalent of a large estate car (Volvo V70) /small van and is designed to 'do what it says on the tin'. Hence the proven quality components and materials to ensure that it is developed enough to endure sustained fleet usage.
For example, the use of two batteries to guarentee range, the use of T45 steel instead of Cro Moly, I could go on but it would easier for you to view the website Andrew Walters Next Generation Bicycles
 
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carigada

Pedelecer
Jul 7, 2008
49
0
UK
I'd personally not want to wear a toast-rack on my head :)
I never used to wear a helmet until I got married and my wife made my life miserable nagging that I should wear one. Several times over the years since then I have been glad that I was wearing one. I would not be posting on this forum had I not been wearing a cycle helmet four years ago when I had a crash. I respect your right not to wear one, just as I respect your right to compete for the annual Darwin award if you so desire.
 

nigel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 18, 2006
467
0
I also dont wish to wear a toast rack on my bonce:D i hope we are not going to start the helmet debate again lets agree to disagree:D :) nigel.