What will be the next major step forward

[oldtom]

Not for the first time, an innocuous thread here has taken a turn away from the OP's question into a discussion about the 'what ifs' and 'maybes' of the legislation applicable to EAPCs and potential changes which may, or may not be, in the offing.

This time, we are invited to believe 20 mph could become the legal limit but there would be a trade-off through losing the throttle......I think that's the premise but I might have misunderstood.

I really don't understand the people who feel the need to ride EAPCs with assistance providing speeds beyond that which they could ever achieve through simply pedalling a regular hybrid pushbike. Equally, the concept of a throttle on a bike is lost on me. If these things are important, then the world of motorcycles provides something for everyone.

As for the OP's question, I don't think there will be any major steps forward with regard to EAPCs in the future. Science, most likely in the field of metallurgy, may provide some new amazingly light, cheap to produce, materials which could impact on EAPCs, indeed all bicycle performance but in terms of power production, legislation will continue to determine the permissible limits.

All in all, I have a difficulty imagining any major steps forward in EAPCs but I have an even greater difficulty trying to imagine why anyone might want to have the benefits of a moped or motorcycle on an EAPC.

Tom

 

[Twangman]

Oh ffs d8veh no where did I say turning e bikes into e mopeds
Watch a few videos it may open your eyes

 

[electric.mike]

Tom,i can only explain the reason I want a throttle and its not to ride like a moped,i have had and still got two ebikes,a sakura cruiser (or California) and powabyke euro 6,the sakura had a crude pedal sensor which according to the point of sale chat detected how much pressure I applied and then decided how much to chip in with.

At my13 stone it was next to useless a lot of the time for me,hills or towing a trailer was hard work,my wife on the identical machine but weighing considerably less than me sailed away and left me standing,fortunately it had a throttle so I could feed in extra help,most of the time not enough though.

I decided I needed more grunt from a bike so bought the powabyke,its pedal sensor was like the rest of the bike basic and fairly crude,it was just a case of pedals spinning means I can use the throttle to feed in power,the other setting does not require the pedals to be moving after setting off.

So I have got used to deciding how much help I need and feeding that in myself,never ridden a proper pedal assist with 3 or more levels so don’t know if it would suit me.


My next ebike will be an Internet purchase as the bikes I am interested in are too far away for me to try,i don’t think I would risk spending that sort of money on EAPC sensor system only,i may find I don’t need a throttle with the way things have improved but I would rather have it and not use it than make a mistake and wish I had one.

 

[jackhandy]

Twangman obviously has access to a very different demographic (if that's the right term) to that which I encounter when out on my bike.

The most frequent comment I get, when I explain that it's battery I assisted, is on the lines of 'But it looks like a proper bike, not like the heavy old moped-like things I've seen around. Maybe I'll get one'.
Which would seem to indicate the market has it about right with the current crop of designs.

Certainly, down here, battery mopeds will be useless unless the range can be considerably extended.

 

[flecc]

What the DfT would like and what the EU want you may find is two different things.EU laws are all about Harmonisation amongst member states. It makes sense that UK law falls in line with Europe why should EU
suppliers/manufacturers have to derestrict just to be able to sell in the UK?
Their argument I imagine is that it is a unfair burden and cost just to sell in the UK.
However my main point is not speed but what a ebike should be. Most bikes are just a glorified bike. mainly because until recently they have been sold by traditional bike companies. Where others are starting to enter the market we are seeing some radical designs it's interesting seeing the concepts from car company's and the likes of Swatch Giving the production capabilities of these company's they could quickly churn out bikes at a competitive price point if they think there is a market and a profit to be made.

But this wasn't an answer to my question and is a distortion anyway.

The DfT is in favour of full harmonisation with the EU laws on pedelecs, but that means the same 25 kph (15.6 mph) assist limit, not the 20 mph that you inferred. I merely asked where you had got that idea from.

It's not the DfT that wants to be out of line, it's the UK's pedelecers, since they have asked for throttles as well. The EU pedelecs don't have those.
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[Twangman]

Maybe the demographic I see is different from you, I thinking about office workers who commute into town and want something that is foldable,portable and they can take into the office and that dos not make you break into a sweat when you ride it. Look at bromptons they sell by the truckload because there light have a small footprint when folded and easy to get on and off a train with.

Why can we not have affordable e bike where the wiring and battery is hidden into the frame and also the lights and display are also built in.
Look at the woosh zephyr it may be not made up of the best parts but design wise it stands out as an example of what can be done. Or at the other end the new range of A2B bikes have some great features again not to everyone's taste or price but at least these company's are trying something new. I do believe in the next 5 to 10 years it will be common to see bikes that do not have just a battery and a motor slapped on them.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Most of the bikes that you've mentioned flopped, saleswise, for a reason. The public don't like that sort of thing, and to make them like that costs a lot, so they become expensive. If the Woosh Zephyr was so great, everybody would have them, but they don't. Why do you think that is? You poo-pooed the idea of a utility vehicle, which is very narrow-minded thinking. Whilst I appreciate your enthusiasm to challenge the status quo, I think you're simply trying to railroad designs into the way you want electric bikes to be.

Think about what's needed to get people out of they're gas guzzlers into a more convenient and environmentally friendly means of transport. First there has to be an alternative, and then you have to make their present choice much less pleasant. Take away the parking places at the shops and schools, and they'd have to think again. At the moment, it seems that somebody has started a deliberate policy of slowing down road traffic: Traffic lights going up where they're not needed; 20mph limits; etc. Maybe they're working towards that. It wouldn't surprise me if Bristol is not some government backed pilot.

Those electric bikes that I indicated above are very popular in China for a reason - mainly that the alternatives would be worse. They're cheap. They can be parked anywhere. You can take a kid to school or do the shopping. Perfect for all the journeys of less than 5 miles. At £160, they make a perfect introduction to electric transport. Once the masses are accustomed to that, you get the economies of scale that allow development of technologies and designs.

 

[flecc]

I do think we'll see more standardisation with time Twangman, but although I fully understand what you are saying, it's realisation will depend entirely on the EU market. Since by far the largest part of that is The Netherlands where they prefer upright normal style bicycles and mostly cycle at speeds usually far below 25 kph, I don't hold out much hope that your prediction will come true.

Nearly eight years ago when this forum started, others were saying what you've said, but if anything e-bikes have moved further away from what you desire. Back then there were some examples of types leaning towards your wishes, but they've disappeared. Intermittently there have been introductions like the A2B Metro and others with the more integrated aspects, but they've either disappeared or have struggled in the market.

D8veh has rightly drawn attention to the scooter type e-bikes that are so prevalent in China and would like to see them here in the UK. We have had them imported at times but they've failed to catch on.

There's a simple reason for everything I've said above. The market in the UK is only to people who already cycle or have cycled quite a lot previously since we are predominantly a car driving nation, and for an e-bike they want a bicycle of some kind, not a scooter. The scooter style e-bike will only succeed if we have a swing of the general population into e-bikes, people who do not have preformed notions of what an e-bike should be.

And of course if we want that to happen we need to stop saying e-bike and start saying something different like pedelec, thus inferring it's a different vehicle type and not a bike.

N.B. Crossed with d8veh's post above.
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[trex]

... If the Woosh Zephyr was so great, everybody would have them, but they don't. Why do you think that is? You poo-pooed the idea of a utility vehicle, which is very narrow-minded thinking. Whilst I appreciate your enthusiasm to challenge the status quo, I think you're simply trying to railroad designs into the way you want electric bikes to be.
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the Zephyr (CDN) is an evolutionary step and Wooshes best selling folder. It's the best folding bike from Woosh so far, quiet and fast but the next two (folders) will improve on it. The Metro will have the power and speed, the Gallego will have the clever fold, both will be here end of October.

 

[VictoryV]

Are you sure about that? I can't imagine a 900 Ah starting battery on a car. Could you have misread the label which actually says 90 Ah?

I was quoting from my handbook which says 900AH, but I boldly went where I've never been before in 10 years and that was into the boot below the floor deck where the battery lives. Lo and behold on the battery label it says 900A for the cranking amps.

So my handbook was wrong and I apologise sincerely to you all for leading you astray and causing a diversion on the path of this thread.

 

[flecc]

Thanks VictoryV, but no apology is necessary or due. You should have been able to rely on the handbook being precise.
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[Deleted member 4366]

D8veh has rightly drawn attention to the scooter type e-bikes that are so prevalent in China and would like to see them here in the UK. We have had them imported at times but they've failed to catch on.
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Mainly because they're illegal!. You need 750w plus to get Mrs Pizza and her kid to school. I don't know how powerful the Chinese ones are, but they have large direct drive motors in them whatever the badge says.

 

[flecc]

Mainly because they're illegal!. You need 750w plus to get Mrs Pizza and her kid to school.

True, though those imported have been sold as and labelled 250 watts. The performance belies that though, given that the pedals get little use by those who've bought these machines like member Synthman.
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[Gubbins]

It seems to me that any steps forward appear to be miniaturisation (the whole kit and caboodle inside a wheel controlled be a smart phone) and adding more sofisticated gadgetry to the handle bars (bosch nyon). Today I did 30 miles on my MOPC and at one point managed 30mph, but dodging pot holes, pot hole repairs, grates, man hole covers and other debris as well as the traffic makes me think perhaps 15 mph is fast enough!

 

[tillson]

I was quoting from my handbook which says 900AH, but I boldly went where I've never been before in 10 years and that was into the boot below the floor deck where the battery lives. Lo and behold on the battery label it says 900A for the cranking amps.

So my handbook was wrong and I apologise sincerely to you all for leading you astray and causing a diversion on the path of this thread.

Hi VictoryV, As flecc says, no apology necessary. You quoted your handbook in good faith.

 

[Gubbins]

Yes I know the Law though from what I understand the trade off will be we will lose the throttle but speed will go up to 20mph in line with rest of Europe, mind you I can get 18mpg on a good day out of the volt just by using the throttle.
My main point is prices are far too high on quality e bikes compared to the price of a e moped, if retailers want to create a mass market for e bikes in the UK. I also wonder how the market would go if Apple designed a ibike.

Looking at this made me think about what is good and bad about iPhone! If they made an e-bike it would have apple wheels, tyres and tubes that could only be inflated by an apple pump, apple only brakes and pads, non universal cables etc. I fact they would probably try to patent the wheel as well.
Phill
Android till I die.... Which Acording to a life expectancy test will be February next year...

 

[electric.mike]

Looking at this made me think about what is good and bad about iPhone! If they made an e-bike it would have apple wheels, tyres and tubes that could only be inflated by an apple pump, apple only brakes and pads, non universal cables etc. I fact they would probably try to patent the wheel as well.
Phill
Android till I die.... Which Acording to a life expectancy test will be February next year...

At least it wouldn't get a virus

 

[flecc]

till I die.... Which Acording to a life expectancy test will be February next year...

I truthfully filled in one of those once and apparently I died a few years ago.

I still haven't discovered how to live backwards in time so, being unable to get back to when I die, I guess I shall just have to carry on for ever into infinity,

Sad that you lot won't be around to see how e-bikes do develop into the future.
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[Gubbins]

I truthfully filled in one of those once and apparently I died a few years ago.

I still haven't discovered how to live backwards in time so, being unable to get back to when I die, I guess I shall just have to carry on for ever into infinity,
.
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Would that make you "Backwards Compatible?"

 

[neptune]

Throttle are a bit controversial, but they seem to be important to some people. Older people benefit from being able to stop peddling to take a rest. It seems that due to EU regulation, it is unlikely we will see higher speeds.

There is no regulation governing maximum range, and so we may see improvements here. We are still waiting for a better battery. No doubt there will be small incremental improvements, but it is unlikely that we will see an order of magnitude improvement in battery power to weight ratio. Unlikely, but not totally impossible.