What will be the next major step forward

[flecc]

Note these are not suitable for deep cycle applications,like we use for power on our e-bikes.
KudosDave

Unless you want to have a dozen very exciting accelerations with an ultra high current controller before throwing away the spent battery!

And maybe the spent e-bike too!
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Flecc,
that may be so,haven't tried it. The problem putting auto crank batteries into deep cycle applications,is that they are not designed for deep cycle and will only recharge for maximum 40 cycles and maybe less.
The invalid scooter guys have learnt to their cost that cheap cranking motorcycle batteries don't last long on an invalid scooter,same applies to e-bikes.
KudosDave

 

[tongxinpete]

I have been building / riding / experimenting with ebikes for 10 years. Lately we seem to have taken a step backward, at least in terms of accurate info & torque graphs for motors. remember the very detailed charts that 'Kenny' of Xlyte used to publish about his 400 series motors. You could see what winding would produce X amount of torque @ say 15A 36v. Often now all this is in a sort of fog. I went round in circles trying to get the true figs for a Q100 vs a Q100H. Those motors that you can get good info on - (Bafang BPM) you can then not buy easily in the code you want. High speeds are fine if you live in Kansas or Holland, but hill climbing ability for me way trumps this. Throttles I like as once you have assisted strongly up a tough hill you can then rest, coast & get your breath back. I saved & got going a TGA crank drive, only to have a second freewheel failure today, 3 miles into a commute, struggled home & got out my trusty 13.7 mph top speed hub bike, this performed effortlessly, I think a well chosen hub motor is best if the rider is fit enough to pedal a conventional bike on the flat. I think you need to look at the weight of the rider, the terrain where he will use it & choose a sensible motor. In other words one size will never fit all. I agree about the two speed Xionda, also a guy on ES was hoping to develop a '2 mech speed Currie' as this did not need the low speed & immense torque to drive cranks - only to be re speeded up in driving the rear wheel.
A sticky topic calculator that converted Nm into Lbf, then corrected this for actual wheel size, had an input for all up weight inc rider, then gave out the hill climb grades as percent & 1 in x for no pedaling & 50% assist pedaling would be good, I think more realistic choices might then be made leading to less disappointment. Education as to how many charges per wk a rider needs to use to get the most economic use out of a batt chemistry (6.5 for Li ion, 5 for Life Po4, Occasional users look at NiZn or SLA). Rear motors fit all frame types. Ebiking is FUN if you get it right.

 

[electric.mike]

Without doing any checking i thought the over cooked quoted distance an Ebike could cover on one charge was a major contributing factor in there scarcity on the road, looking at this 2010 report ime not so sure, even the cheapest ebay crap would cover most peoples needs.

The average cyclist
made 6 trips per week by bicycle in 2010,
spending just under two hours on their bicycle
and covering 16 miles.

The above if correct would take a very high percentage of cyclist out of the interested in an Ebike category,locally now we see 3 ebikes on a regular basis but 4 if not 5 of these.

http://eriderbikes.com/product/

I am off the mind its the failure of the expected ability of an ebike to be a moped,even if puchased from a dealer shop that first ride comes as a pleasant surprise to people,being way ahead of a pedal bike in the way it sets off and runs its not until they have to live with it they realise its only electric assist.

I do understand the problems with using results quoted as an average

 

[trex]

mike, are you saying that there is more interest in the throttle only electric mopeds than assist e-bikes? nothing stops people use their road legal e-bikes with throttle as e-mopeds as far as I am aware. The power consumption will go up but still not as high as e-mopeds, about 16-20WH per mile. With a 15AH battery, that gives a useful range around 30 miles.

 

[tillson]

For info my Volvo has a 12 Volt 900ah battery -

Are you sure about that? I can't imagine a 900 Ah starting battery on a car. Could you have misread the label which actually says 90 Ah?

 

[oldtom]

The next major step forward? If one considers the bicycle from its earliest inception through the adoption of assorted frame changes and propulsion method improvements over the 20th century, there hasn't actually been any major step change for an awful long time.

The reality is that there isn't all that much that can be done any more with a bicycle while retaining its raison d'être, other than a few styling nuances here and there for nothing other than fashion change, in much the same way as clothing.

As any suitable fuel cell seems a long way off and batteries, as we know them, only improve marginally over decades, it's hard to see how there can be any major step forward in the world of electrically-assisted bicycles any time soon. Frankly, I don't mind if things don't move on from where we are now as I feel that the bikes we have available to us today are perfectly adequate for purpose. More power and/or greater range can be accessed by motor-cycling where there is something for everyone, such is the breadth of variety in that sphere.

Tom

 

[trex]

for a long time, folding bikes are believed to be energy inefficient.
Electric assist is the game changer for folding bikes.
So, e-folding bike is the next logical step forward. Bikes that can be taken into the underground, bikes that go inside lifts, bikes that are light enough to be carried up stairs, stowed in car boot, bikes that have hidden batteries not attracting thieves, fast enough and powerful enough to be a decent e-mopeds.
Yes, I can see e-folders as the next logical step.

 

[oldtom]

Yes, I can see e-folders as the next logical step.

These are already with us and there's a limited number of cyclists or potential cyclists who are prepared to use such machines. Folders, both powered and unpowered, have been around for a very long time and cannot really be considered now as the 'next major step forward'.

Tom

 

[trex]

Some people say that the Brompton was/is a significant step forward, some have been waiting for a good e-Brompton for ages. Until now, e-Bromptons are disappointing: front motor feeling too weak, battery too small or fouling the clever fold, rear hub kits can't keep the gear range etc.
An e-Brompton that has big capacity hidden battery, strong motor, hub gear and preserving the clever fold could be the next major step.

 

[RobF]

My Brompton Nano feels a bit weedy in comparison to a Bosch bike, and I imagine in comparison to the better hub motors.

The added weight of motor and battery all but kills the portability - it is really only suitable for lifting in and out of the back of the car.

A notional eBrommie that weighed the same as ordinary one would be a giant leap forward.

But that would also apply to any ebike that weighed no more than an ordinary bicycle.

 

[trex]

...

A notional eBrommie that weighed the same as ordinary one would be a giant leap forward.

But that would also apply to any ebike that weighed no more than an ordinary bicycle.

That's what I am talking about. May be not this year though.
The clever folding applied to an electric bike and weight reduction are the key issues.

 

[electric.mike]

mike, are you saying that there is more interest in the throttle only electric mopeds than assist e-bikes? nothing stops people use their road legal e-bikes with throttle as e-mopeds as far as I am aware. The power consumption will go up but still not as high as e-mopeds, about 16-20WH per mile. With a 15AH battery, that gives a useful range around 30 miles.

I think some of the younger customers may find the moped style more sexy and give more street cred.

Shame because i think they are more likley to be dissatisfied with them and of course youngsters can move on to one of these,cheaper than an Ebike.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50CC-SCOOTER-MOPED-BLACK-BLUE-BRAND-NEW-14-PLATE-JONWAY-FREE-TOP-BOX-OR-HELMET-/231308621215?pt=UK_Motorcycles&hash=item35db11759f

 

[drsolly]

for a long time, folding bikes are believed to be energy inefficient.
Electric assist is the game changer for folding bikes.
So, e-folding bike is the next logical step forward. Bikes that can be taken into the underground, bikes that go inside lifts, bikes that are light enough to be carried up stairs, stowed in car boot, bikes that have hidden batteries not attracting thieves, fast enough and powerful enough to be a decent e-mopeds.
Yes, I can see e-folders as the next logical step.

I use nothing but efolding ebikes. It means that when I transport the bike in the car, I dont have to use a rear rack, with all the fuffing about that it entails.

 

[tillson]

That's what I am talking about. May be not this year though.
The clever folding applied to an electric bike and weight reduction are the key issues.

I think what you are talking about is the Holy Grail of a very lightweight compact battery which is capable of storing a large amount of energy. I don't think that we can look forward to it arriving any time soon, so until then we will be constrained by pretty much what we have already.

In the immediate future, bikes will continue to be laid before us bearing eye catching paint jobs, camouflaged batteries and complicated suspension set-ups which incorporate ingenious looking linkages. All of this being nothing more than the re-packaging of the very mature, tried and tested, basic bicycle design. I once read Alan Sugar's autobiography and he described the process as creating a, "Mug's Eyefull."

 

[Kudoscycles]

The next major step forward? If one considers the bicycle from its earliest inception through the adoption of assorted frame changes and propulsion method improvements over the 20th century, there hasn't actually been any major step change for an awful long time.

The reality is that there isn't all that much that can be done any more with a bicycle while retaining its raison d'être, other than a few styling nuances here and there for nothing other than fashion change, in much the same way as clothing.

As any suitable fuel cell seems a long way off and batteries, as we know them, only improve marginally over decades, it's hard to see how there can be any major step forward in the world of electrically-assisted bicycles any time soon. Frankly, I don't mind if things don't move on from where we are now as I feel that the bikes we have available to us today are perfectly adequate for purpose. More power and/or greater range can be accessed by motor-cycling where there is something for everyone, such is the breadth of variety in that sphere.

Tom

Tom....I endorse your comments and actually think it's a good thing that we seem to have settled on a particular configuration to be most popular.
That allows us to refine the product,constantly jumping between crank drive and hub drive,which has knock-on effects across the rest of the bike does not allow us to get the fine details right.
It's also a good situation for customers,especially residual e-bike values,it must be frustrating to buy a 'state of the art bike' one year,only to find that 12 months later it is last years concept.
KudosDave

 

[trex]

I think what you are talking about is the Holy Grail of a very lightweight compact battery which is capable of storing a large amount of energy. I don't think that we can look forward to it arriving any time soon, so until then we will be constrained by pretty much what we have already.

In the immediate future, bikes will continue to be laid before us bearing eye catching paint jobs, camouflaged batteries and complicated suspension set-ups which incorporate ingenious looking linkages. All of this being nothing more than the re-packaging of the very mature, tried and tested, basic bicycle design. I once read Alan Sugar's autobiography and he described the process as creating a, "Mug's Eyefull."

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/05/12/new-graphene-carbon-nanotube-supercapacitor/

This is a story about combining a large and light supercapacitor with a small Lithium battery. The idea is not new: the supercapacitor holds the charge, recharging the the Lithium battery which runs the bike. Progress made on graphene / silicon sheets makes it possible to have a capacitor that lasts 20 years + and charges up in a couple of minutes - thus does not need a huge capacity. The 36V Lithium battery does not last that many years but very cheap to replace (something like £30) because it holds only something like 1AH.

 

[VictoryV]

Are you sure about that? I can't imagine a 900 Ah starting battery on a car. Could you have misread the label which actually says 90 Ah?

I am quoting from the handbook, my model S80 has 900ah and or 850 ah depending on acccessory fittings

 

[tillson]

I am quoting from the handbook, my model S80 has 900ah and or 850 ah depending on acccessory fittings

Hi VictoryV, I think that must be the Amperes that the battery can deliver for a short period of time whilst cranking the engine. Amperes, rather than Ampere-hours. This is sometimes referred to as the cranking current, but 850 to 900 seems astonishingly high, too high in fact.

To give you some idea, a 90 Ah battery has dimensions of roughly 14" x 7" x 8", so scaling that up, your battery would need to be approximately 10 times as big to give a capacity of 900 Ah.

I'm sure there is somebody on here who can tell us what the 850 to 900 figure in your hand book is likely to represent.

 

[flecc]

Yes, that is certainly cranking power and not the Ah capacity of the battery. That 900 amps boost cranking power is possible from a fairly large car battery, the small batteries in jump starters deliver huge amounts. For example the portable professional one below delivers up to 1100 amps cold cranking current at 12 volts from it's quite small battery (at a huge price though!). It's peak boost current is 3500 amps! I have a cheap one with an 18 Ah small internal battery, but even that delivers into the hundreds of amps cold cranking current: